Evidence for God from Science

Show me how not stopping a great evil you could easily prevent is much different from doing it yourself.

Any specific situation in mind or just something in general?
First off, the person/people committing the great evil are the ones responsible for that great evil.
The guy that drives drunk and kills someone is the person responsible for that killing, not the car, not the guy that made the booze, not the friend that "let" him drive drunk.
We should NEVER shift responsibility of an act FROM the person/people DOING that act.

What you are basically asking is, since GOD can (supposedly) stop any act from happening and we know that he DOESN'T, isn't God just as guilty as the evil doers, right?
Well first of all, like I said above, only the person/people that commit and act of evil are responsible for that act of evil.
What you are really asking is, shouldn't God be responsible / liable for stopping acts of evil since God CAN do it?
Personally I think that God is NOT responsible, WE ARE.
Personally I think that it is not "God's Job" to "babysit" us and keep us from doing harm since WE don't want him to interfere anyways.
Lets be honest here, people do NOT want God to step into their lives and stop/prevent them from doing anything that want that, according to God, would result in "evil".
Ir's not God's job to hold our hand and fix our messes since we KNOW better, we KNOW what is evil and not.
God has done "His job", He has shown us right and wrong, good and evil AND given us the tool to do one or the other.
The rest is up to us.
So, in reality, according to your question, it isn't God that is on trial, it is US because WE know how to stop ANY "great evil" and we CAN do it, but we don't.

Paul that is a terrible answer. God doesnt prevent or stop evil because its not his job to babysit us? Is this the God that is watching over us, that we are supposed to worship and praise; one who doesnt stop evil because its not his job? It seems the more you talk about God the less you make him sound like a God deserving of worship and praise.

MAGSolo wrote:Paul that is a terrible answer. God doesnt prevent or stop evil because its not his job to babysit us? Is this the God that is watching over us, that we are supposed to worship and praise; one who doesnt stop evil because its not his job? It seems the more you talk about God the less you make him sound like a God deserving of worship and praise.

I guess I get it - you logic says - Magsolo killed a man and is not responsible for this act, however, God is responsible for not stopping Magsolo murderous act. So Magsolo is a poor innocent victim of the cruelty of God.

Does Magsolo go free, then?
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B. W. wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Paul that is a terrible answer. God doesnt prevent or stop evil because its not his job to babysit us? Is this the God that is watching over us, that we are supposed to worship and praise; one who doesnt stop evil because its not his job? It seems the more you talk about God the less you make him sound like a God deserving of worship and praise.

I guess I get it - you logic says - Magsolo killed a man and is not responsible for this act, however, God is responsible for not stopping Magsolo murderous act. So Magsolo is a poor innocent victim of the cruelty of God.

Does Magsolo go free, then?
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I think the logic is more like this.

There is a police officer tasked with guarding the lives of citizens who is on duty. In front of him is a person. A murderer comes up to that person and says to the officer, "I am going to kill this person." and waits 5 minutes. The officer does nothing but watch as this person kills them while being fully able to have prevented it. Why? To stop him would be a violation of that person's free will and rights under the law. The murderer is still guilty, but God was fully able to have saved this person's life - the murderer is only punished after the fact. This is more analogous to the situation he described.

Again, not really into the problem of evil and not saying I agree with this, but there's no reason to misrepresent his words either.

People keep forgetting that if God exists then we do not really die but we move into eternity, for there to be responsibility the act would have to be evil.

I do not see death as evil but more of a natural progression from the temporal to the eternal.

*Edit* I wonder what life would be like if God always stepped in to fix everything, pretty sure freewill would cease to exist and we would be mindless robots.

Dan

B. W. wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Paul that is a terrible answer. God doesnt prevent or stop evil because its not his job to babysit us? Is this the God that is watching over us, that we are supposed to worship and praise; one who doesnt stop evil because its not his job? It seems the more you talk about God the less you make him sound like a God deserving of worship and praise.

I guess I get it - you logic says - Magsolo killed a man and is not responsible for this act, however, God is responsible for not stopping Magsolo murderous act. So Magsolo is a poor innocent victim of the cruelty of God.

Does Magsolo go free, then?
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That is not what I am saying at all. This is what I am saying: Suppose I see you somewhere with your wife or girlfriend out having a good time when a group of guys decides to start making trouble with you. There are a good number of them and they are simply up to no good and you try your best to defend your wife/gf but are soon overpowered at which point some of the guys start mercilessly beating you to a pulp while the rest begin to ruthlessly beat and rape your wife/gf. Clearly these guys are responsible for their actions. Now the thing is I am watching these events unfold from the beginning. Not only am I witnessing them but I have several items at my disposal that I could use to help. I have a gun and I could either shoot a few shots in the air to get the attackers to stop and flee or I could actually shoot at them to really drive my point home. I also have a cell phone so if nothing else I could at least call the police. But I dont take my gun out, I dont dial 911, I dont yell at the attackers to stop, I dont yell or look for help, I just watch while you are beaten to a pulp and your wife/gf is beaten and repeatedly raped. I dont refuse to intervene because I am afraid, I simply dont think its my responsibility to prevent this from happening even though I could very likely stop it from happening. Am I completely blameless in this series of events? Suppose someone where to ask me why I didnt do anything at all even though I had the ability to aid in some way, and I responded that its not my job to babysit people hold their hand so they dont do bad things. What would you think of me? Im not saying the perpetrators are not responsible, but I am asking do I not bear some responsibility for my inaction or is my inaction completely blameless and faultless?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:People keep forgetting that if God exists then we do not really die but we move into eternity, for there to be responsibility the act would have to be evil.

I do not see death as evil but more of a natural progression from the temporal to the eternal.

*Edit* I wonder what life would be like if God always stepped in to fix everything, pretty sure freewill would cease to exist and we would be mindless robots.

Dan

If death is not evil then why is murder considered wrong? If we dont die but only move into eternity, then why does the Bible command not to murder?

MAGSolo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:People keep forgetting that if God exists then we do not really die but we move into eternity, for there to be responsibility the act would have to be evil.

I do not see death as evil but more of a natural progression from the temporal to the eternal.

*Edit* I wonder what life would be like if God always stepped in to fix everything, pretty sure freewill would cease to exist and we would be mindless robots.

Dan

If death is not evil then why is murder considered wrong? If we dont die but only move into eternity, then why does the Bible command not to murder?

Because it is not for us to take a life, only the one who gives life has the right to take it (God), death in of itself is not evil, murder is an action to perform death which is evil.

Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:People keep forgetting that if God exists then we do not really die but we move into eternity, for there to be responsibility the act would have to be evil.

I do not see death as evil but more of a natural progression from the temporal to the eternal.

*Edit* I wonder what life would be like if God always stepped in to fix everything, pretty sure freewill would cease to exist and we would be mindless robots.

Dan

If death is not evil then why is murder considered wrong? If we dont die but only move into eternity, then why does the Bible command not to murder?

Because it is not for us to take a life, only the one who gives life has the right to take it (God), death in of itself is not evil, murder is an action to perform death which is evil.

Dan

Another issue would be intent. Death in and of itself is not evil, as Daniel said. No one is committing a crime when someone dies of old age or gets struck by lightning--that's just nature. A tiger isn't guilty of murder if it kills a human because a tiger is incapable of being morally responsible for an action; humans are. However, a human is not a murderer if he/she kills someone else accidentally in a way that is not the result of negligence. What makes a murder a murder is the evil intent behind it, whether wrath, greed, or simply the desire to expedite a task by endangering the lives of others.

Icthus wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:People keep forgetting that if God exists then we do not really die but we move into eternity, for there to be responsibility the act would have to be evil.

I do not see death as evil but more of a natural progression from the temporal to the eternal.

*Edit* I wonder what life would be like if God always stepped in to fix everything, pretty sure freewill would cease to exist and we would be mindless robots.

Dan

If death is not evil then why is murder considered wrong? If we dont die but only move into eternity, then why does the Bible command not to murder?

Because it is not for us to take a life, only the one who gives life has the right to take it (God), death in of itself is not evil, murder is an action to perform death which is evil.

Dan

Another issue would be intent. Death in and of itself is not evil, as Daniel said. No one is committing a crime when someone dies of old age or gets struck by lightning--that's just nature. A tiger isn't guilty of murder if it kills a human because a tiger is incapable of being morally responsible for an action; humans are. However, a human is not a murderer if he/she kills someone else accidentally in a way that is not the result of negligence. What makes a murder a murder is the evil intent behind it, whether wrath, greed, or simply the desire to expedite a task by endangering the lives of others.

Just to add to what Icthus said, God is incapable of making a morally wrong choice hence why when he takes a life it is not murder.

I also think because God knows all, his taking of life is justified.

Dan

The problem with these arguments is that they show a lack of understanding of the G-d of the Bible.

Beanybag wrote:I think the logic is more like this.

There is a police officer tasked with guarding the lives of citizens who is on duty. In front of him is a person. A murderer comes up to that person and says to the officer, "I am going to kill this person." and waits 5 minutes. The officer does nothing but watch as this person kills them while being fully able to have prevented it. Why? To stop him would be a violation of that person's free will and rights under the law. The murderer is still guilty, but God was fully able to have saved this person's life - the murderer is only punished after the fact. This is more analogous to the situation he described.

Again, not really into the problem of evil and not saying I agree with this, but there's no reason to misrepresent his words either.

Your analogy is innaccurate because it has G-d as the police officer. That's not Who G-d is, at least not the G-d of Judeo-Christianity. He's not the police officer of the Earth.

You guys make assumptions that G-d should stop all suffering in this life, and because He doesn't, He's evil. But what if that's not the purpose of this life? What if G-d made this transitory life for a different purpose? Indeed, that's what the Scriptures say. G-d DOES want to stop all of our suffering, but He's given us first a world and a life where we can make our own choices. The Bible says in Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" So G-d created mankind for the purpose of being the stewards of the Earth.

Again, it's written in Psalm 115:16, "The heavens are the heavens of Hashem, But the Earth He has given to the sons of men." So heaven is where G-d controls everything and prevents all suffering, but for the time being He's given the Earth to human beings for them to be in control.

So, your arguments have a couple problems. For one, they misunderstand Who G-d is and what His purposes are. For two, they misunderstand the purpose and nature of this life and the context of this life, neglecting to keep in mind the World to Come.

MAGSolo wrote:Paul that is a terrible answer. God doesnt prevent or stop evil because its not his job to babysit us? Is this the God that is watching over us, that we are supposed to worship and praise; one who doesnt stop evil because its not his job? It seems the more you talk about God the less you make him sound like a God deserving of worship and praise.

That is, of course YOUR opinion.
May I just remind you that an answer being terrible according to your view of what you want the answer to be, does NOT make it incorrect or invalid.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:People keep forgetting that if God exists then we do not really die but we move into eternity, for there to be responsibility the act would have to be evil.

I do not see death as evil but more of a natural progression from the temporal to the eternal.

*Edit* I wonder what life would be like if God always stepped in to fix everything, pretty sure freewill would cease to exist and we would be mindless robots.

Dan

Those that want God to 'fix things" will be the first to complain when he does because it is almost a 100% certainty that God will fix something that THEY don't think is "broken".

There is a police officer tasked with guarding the lives of citizens who is on duty. In front of him is a person. A murderer comes up to that person and says to the officer, "I am going to kill this person." and waits 5 minutes. The officer does nothing but watch as this person kills them while being fully able to have prevented it. Why? To stop him would be a violation of that person's free will and rights under the law. The murderer is still guilty, but God was fully able to have saved this person's life - the murderer is only punished after the fact. This is more analogous to the situation he described.

Where in the bible does it say that God is the "police officer" of Earth?
I recall it saying that HUMANS are the stewards of creation and that means protectors of all of creation ( which includes themselves of course).
Seems to me that people DO want God to fix our mistakes and I am not sure why.
Yes, there is a promise of a future time when God will do just that, BUT what is also made clear is that even after that is done, some will still rebel.

Seems like people want an omnipotent dictator that forces people to behave, which is odd because when God does do that in the OT, He gets criticized for that.