Evidence for God from Science

We started to discuss this verse in this thread:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 30#p125967

RickD wrote: The text says that. See vs. 9: 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

He is patient with you(meaning those he is speaking with), not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance(has to mean unbelievers, because the believers there, 1) are already saved, and will not perish, because they are believers, and 2) believers, by nature of being believers, have already come to repentance.

This is showing the patience, and love of God, toward all people.

Rick, Peter later writes in his final words:
"14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,"
So, "count the patience of our Lord as salvation". Are all people going to obtain salvation?

Define Salvation.
Do you mean an "automatic" salvation based on faith in Christ, which is a salvation from Judgment?
Or do you mean a salvation from the final death?
Or something else?

Hana wrote:
So, "count the patience of our Lord as salvation". Are all people going to obtain salvation?

Hana, how does one obtain salvation?

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Does everyone believe in Jesus Christ?

PaulSacramento wrote:Define Salvation.
Do you mean an "automatic" salvation based on faith in Christ, which is a salvation from Judgment?
Or do you mean a salvation from the final death?
Or something else?

Salvation from the final death.

RickD wrote:

Hana wrote:
So, "count the patience of our Lord as salvation". Are all people going to obtain salvation?

Hana, how does one obtain salvation?

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Does everyone believe in Jesus Christ?

Salvation is obtained through faith. And faith is gift from God.
To Romans: Question is, who confess that? Answer: those given the gift.
To John: Well, what follows is what once my friend wrote to me:

"John 3:16 (NASB95): 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." This statement is true. The emphasis you made on "whoever" is a conditional word in itself. It means it is true, but there is a condition: and that is the "whoever" must believe. And whoever does believe (therefore) will indeed be saved and have eternal life! But the question is, "who will believe"? Who are the "whosoever" ones? That answer must be given in the context of the Scriptures as a whole as, well as from the world as a whole. From the perspective of the Word of God, the "whosoever ones" are the called out ones. The word "Church" in Greek (ekklessia) literally means "the called out ones". God calls everyone. The gospel is for everyone to hear. I will tell it to everyone. But clearly not all want to be saved. For some, it is offensive to be "lost". Jesus said "I have not come for the healthy, but for the sick. I did not come for the righteous, but for the unrighteous." (Luke 5:32). In order to be saved, we need to agree with Jesus's assessment of us; to agree that God's judgement is true: that we are sinners and we need a Saviour. So, it's good to note that the gospel goes out to "whosoever"; but it is important to know that "naturally speaking" no one comes willingly, without God's choosing and drawing them first so that they might have life (Romans 3: 9 - 11); (John 6: 36 - 40). Therefore, as Jesus also said, many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)."

1over137 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Define Salvation.
Do you mean an "automatic" salvation based on faith in Christ, which is a salvation from Judgment?
Or do you mean a salvation from the final death?
Or something else?

Salvation from the final death.

That may make it more complex because salvation from the final death is the salvation after judgment.
In that regard, after the 1000 year reign of Christ, it is those that remain faithful of Satan is released, that will be saved.
I don't think that, typically, when the Apostles spoke of Salvation of believers, that they spoke of this final death but, again typically, to the salavation from Judgment.
As we see in John5:
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
and He continues in regards to the dead:
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [f]the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
( Which echos the parable of the Goats and Sheep in Matthew).

Then, as we read in Revelation, after his judgment Christ will rule on Earth for 1000 years.

1over137 wrote:And faith is gift from God.

Really? Where do you get that from?

I don't know how "easy" it is to separate Grace, faith and Salvation.
Can you have one without the other?
Can one have faith without Grace? Grace without faith? can one be saved without faith or grace?
And if Grace and Salvation are a gift from God, where does faith come from since one can't have faith without grace ( or grace without faith), right?

PaulSacramento wrote:I don't know how "easy" it is to separate Grace, faith and Salvation.
Can you have one without the other?
Can one have faith without Grace? Grace without faith? can one be saved without faith or grace?
And if Grace and Salvation are a gift from God, where does faith come from since one can't have faith without grace ( or grace without faith), right?

Of course they can be separated.

I can have faith in all kinds of things without being saved.
It isn't obvious that all people with no faith are unsaved (what about aborted children?).
God gives grace to all sorts of people that neither results in faith nor their salvation.

Now, certainly, a person who places their faith in Christ is saved, and that by God's grace. So the three concepts go together. But to say they can't be separated is to go too far. None necessarily entail the others.

Jac3510 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I don't know how "easy" it is to separate Grace, faith and Salvation.
Can you have one without the other?
Can one have faith without Grace? Grace without faith? can one be saved without faith or grace?
And if Grace and Salvation are a gift from God, where does faith come from since one can't have faith without grace ( or grace without faith), right?

Of course they can be separated.

I can have faith in all kinds of things without being saved.
It isn't obvious that all people with no faith are unsaved (what about aborted children?).
God gives grace to all sorts of people that neither results in faith nor their salvation.

Now, certainly, a person who places their faith in Christ is saved, and that by God's grace. So the three concepts go together. But to say they can't be separated is to go too far. None necessarily entail the others.

Fair point but we are talking about faith in God and Christ in specific, not faith in general terms.
in regards to this view:
God gives grace to all sorts of people that neither results in faith nor their salvation.

Indeed, I believe that God extends his merciful grace to Us all, believers and non-believers alike ( though not everyone will agree with that of course).
But tell me, what stops a person from recieving God's grace? is it not "lack of faith"?
And if faith is what allows one to accept Grace, where does faith come from?

PaulSacramento wrote:Fair point but we are talking about faith in God and Christ in specific, not faith in general terms.
in regards to this view:
God gives grace to all sorts of people that neither results in faith nor their salvation.

Indeed, I believe that God extends his merciful grace to Us all, believers and non-believers alike ( though not everyone will agree with that of course).
But tell me, what stops a person from recieving God's grace? is it not "lack of faith"?
And if faith is what allows one to accept Grace, where does faith come from?

What makes you think that faith in Christ is any different from faith in anything else? Both are faith.

This goes to an often undiscussed but I think essential problem with Calvinism. They make the type of faith one has saving, whereas I (and I would assert the Bible) make the object of the faith one has saving. Put differently, it isn't the type of faith we have that saves. It is what we have faith in that saves. For those who disagree, I defy them to show me one verse anywhere in Scripture that distinguishes between true faith and false faith, between genuine faith and spurious faith, etc. The Bible only knows of one kind of faith: faith. The argument from Scripture is that we ought to put our faith in the right thing.

So why should we think it takes some special grace of God in order to put our faith in the right thing? There is no verse that says as much. The only thing that keeps us from putting our faith in Christ is ourselves--our own unwillingness. People have this nasty little gift from God called free will, which means that sometimes we choose to do one thing and other times we choose to do another. Sometimes people put their faith in Christ. Other times, for their own reasons, they reject Him.

What makes you think that faith in Christ is any different from faith in anything else? Both are faith.

Faith when I get on a plane in the pilot and the plane is NOT the same as the faith I put in Christ.
So yes, to ME, there is a difference.

This goes to an often undiscussed but I think essential problem with Calvinism. They make the type of faith one has saving, whereas I (and I would assert the Bible) make the object of the faith one has saving. Put differently, it isn't the type of faith we have that saves. It is what we have faith in that saves. For those who disagree, I defy them to show me one verse anywhere in Scripture that distinguishes between true faith and false faith, between genuine faith and spurious faith, etc. The Bible only knows of one kind of faith: faith. The argument from Scripture is that we ought to put our faith in the right thing.

Not a calvinist so...

So why should we think it takes some special grace of God in order to put our faith in the right thing? There is no verse that says as much. The only thing that keeps us from putting our faith in Christ is ourselves--our own unwillingness. People have this nasty little gift from God called free will, which means that sometimes we choose to do one thing and other times we choose to do another. Sometimes people put their faith in Christ. Other times, for their own reasons, they reject Him.

I am not saying we need a "special" grace from Christ to have faith, I am saying that in practical terms, it's very hard to have one without the other.
You can disagree of course, but from my POV, that is hoe I see it personally.

I had a post written out but it is, I think, a bit confusing. A Calvinist might point to James 2:14-26 for a picture of "dead faith". Or 2 Timothy 3:5. Although I think (hope) a Calvinist would agree that faith in Christ simply is a saving faith.

There is some measure of controversy among Calvinists about these things as well.

Could a person grant that all the propositions of the Bible are true without being saved? Without relying on Christ alone? Without actually putting his faith in Christ? If he can, this is what Calvinists would mean by a non-saving faith (as even the demons believe and shudder). But I think you could also say that they aren't really talking about different "types" of faith, unless "no faith" is a type. It isn't types like blue and red are different colors. So this claim is a strawman, at least of my position.

narnia4 wrote:I had a post written out but it is, I think, a bit confusing. A Calvinist might point to James 2:14-26 for a picture of "dead faith". I think a Calvinist would agree that faith in Christ simply is a saving faith. But even the demons believe and shudder.

There is some measure of controversy among Calvinists about these things as well.

Believing isn't the same thing as having faith though, is it?
Once you have faith you believe but just because you believe,doesn't mean you have faith, no?
Like you said, the demons believe BUT they have no faith in Christ.
Satan believes but he has no faith in God.

Yeah I edited my post further and agree with you. I think you could simplify things further but risk misunderstanding. My own distinction (and its maybe misleading, I don't know) is that simple faith in Christ saves (so in that sense any "saving faith" and "non-saving faith" could lend one to confusion), but mere intellectual assent isn't the whole picture of faith.