Evidence for God from Science

Is Hebrews 6:4-8 – Hebrews 10:26-31 true at the expense of what Jesus said?

Are you confused about Falling away, losing your salvation? Can you? What does the bible say on this matter?

Did Jesus peak lies so that certain opinions regarding Hebrews 6:4-8 – Hebrews 10:26-31 be true?

What is the truth?

What does the bible say?

I am going to post in the next frames what Jesus and other bible passages says about believer’s security and then post verse describing what Apostates – those who Fall Away are.

The bible is more than adequate to answer this for us so let’s see what we shall see…

Feel free to comment and please keep it civil…

First Eternal Security:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."

Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
Mat 18:13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written: "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE KILLED ALL DAY LONG; WE ARE ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER."

Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Heb 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU."
Heb 13:6 So we may boldly say: "THE LORD IS MY HELPER; I WILL NOT FEAR. WHAT CAN MAN DO TO ME?"

Isa 41:8 "But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend.
Isa 41:9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its farthest regions, And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away:
Isa 41:10 Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.'

These are just a few verses...

Bible quotes are from NKJV
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What of Apostates – who are they that Fall away? How do you identify them?

Apostates: apostasia; from; defection, revolt: - apostasy, forsake - 3. Among physicians, the throwing off of exfoliated or fractured bone, or the various solution of disease. 4. An abscess.

Iinternation Standard Bible Dictionay defines -- In classical Greek, apostasy signified revolt from a military commander. In the roman catholic church it denotes abandonment of religious orders; renunciation of ecclesiastical authority; defection from the faith.

“Forsaking Yahweh” was the characteristic and oft-recurring sin of the chosen people, especially in their contact with idolatrous nations. It constituted their supreme national peril. The tendency appeared in their earliest history, as abundantly seen in the warnings and prohibitions of the laws of Moses (Exo 20:3, Exo 20:4, Exo 20:23; Deut 6:14; Deut 11:16).


John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

Deut 13:13 'Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods" '—which you have not known—

Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; You grew fat, you grew thick, You are obese! Then he forsook God who made him, And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deut 32:16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
Deut 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.

Zep 1:4 "I will stretch out My hand against Judah, And against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off every trace of Baal from this place, The names of the idolatrous priests with the pagan priests—
Zep 1:5 Those who worship the host of heaven on the housetops; Those who worship and swear oaths by the LORD, But who also swear by Milcom;
Zep 1:6 Those who have turned back from following the LORD, And have not sought the LORD, nor inquired of Him."

John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
2Ti 3:9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,

2Pe 2:15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
Mat 24:11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luk 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
Luk 8:16 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light.
Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.
Luk 8:18 Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him."

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Ti 1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,
1Ti 1:20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Who are these people?

Bible Quotes from NKJV
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To know God and Christ AND to deny them, that is blasphemy against the HS ( since it is the HS that allows us to know them).
No coming back from that one.

PaulSacramento wrote:To know God and Christ AND to deny them, that is blasphemy against the HS ( since it is the HS that allows us to know them).
No coming back from that one.

Agree with the statment but the question is when does this occur and how does it occur?

Could it apply to a true born again Christian?
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Once my friend John wrote to me:
"No, it isn’t his job to make us believe. He doesn’t “make” anyone believe. He does give freedom from the choices we make that enslave us. But that freedom only sets up the circumstances which enable us to make a choice."

Later I wrote this:
"God calls everybody but we ourselves cannot make ourselves to love God and obey Him. We need the HS to be drawn to God. Without HS we are dead. God must draw us to be His. Are we puppets or not? We are not because we still have a choice. We still can rebel and God is not going to wash out our rebellion. Then we would be puppets. He is going to 'respect' our choices and leave us. If we do not choose to love God and obey Him we will end in hell, hell understood as a place of absence of God."

To which he replied:
"When Jesus saw that she had answered wisely, he said to her, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." (John's modern version)."

B. W. wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:To know God and Christ AND to deny them, that is blasphemy against the HS ( since it is the HS that allows us to know them).
No coming back from that one.

Agree with the statment but the question is when does this occur and how does it occur?

Could it apply to a true born again Christian?
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B.W., how could it apply to a true born again Christian? If we are given eternal life, when we put our faith in Christ, and then we no longer have eternal life, then we never had it in the first place.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

RickD wrote:...B.W., how could it apply to a true born again Christian? If we are given eternal life, when we put our faith in Christ, and then we no longer have eternal life, then we never had it in the first place.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

That was what I was asking... in light of the eternal security verses I shared on frame two, page one, of this post - how could a true believer lose his or her salvation?

Some sincere people believe that Hebrews chapter 6 and chapter 10 mentions that a person can lose his/her salvation. How can Jesus say things that make it clear there is eternal security, and others say, in effect, one can lose it based on the same bible?

There would a contradiction between what Jesus said on the matter, verses the way Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 is interpreted.

Please notice that even Hebrews mentions eternal security in the last chapter:

Heb 13:5, 6, Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU." 6 So we may boldly say: "THE LORD IS MY HELPER; I WILL NOT FEAR. WHAT CAN MAN DO TO ME?"

Then read....

Look at Psalms 37:28, For the LORD loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

John 10: 29-30, My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. 12 "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Rom 8:29-37 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE KILLED ALL DAY LONG; WE ARE ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER."

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All bible verses cited are from the NKJV
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Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

Byblos wrote:Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

This might be (ok, probably is) skirting around the issue you're addressing here, but hopefully this still constitutes an answer of some sort.

I think the answer is yes. Let's say someone says they believe in Christ but never fellowships with other believers, never show any adjustment in attitude (or perhaps got even worse) or interest in God, and a few months later is calling himself a skeptic or has converted to another religion... I would almost call you naive if you believe that he ever actually trusted Christ as his Savior. At the very least I would say that you have no positive reason to believe that he was ever a believer, not given the contradictory evidence.

And there's context issues as well. If someone professes to be a believer in a country where they would be stoned for admitting such, that's very good warrant to take them at their word. If its a place or time (historically Western countries) where one is assumed to be Christian or is called Christian when they are born and there are benefits to being Christian and consequences to admitting otherwise, well then the profession means almost nothing.

I would also say that anytime you see no change whatsoever, you have powerful warrant for skepticism about their claim. I believe strongly in the transformative work of the Holy Spirit.

Just thought I would weigh in here. I believe in eternal security but I also believe a believer can choose to give up that security if he or she likes to. I don't believe that G-d forces us to do anything we don't want to do.

Gman wrote:Just thought I would weigh in here. I believe in eternal security but I also believe a believer can choose to give up that security if he or she likes to. I don't believe that G-d forces us to do anything we don't want to do.

I've heard this 13 In [a]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in [c]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [d] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory., Gman. I have a few questions for you about this. When God says He will never leave us, nor forsake us, does He leave us and forsake us if we don't want Him? When we have passed from death to life, do we pass back to death? When God gives us everlasting life, and we give up that eternal security, did we only have "temporary" everlasting life?
And Gman, what about Ephesians 1:13-14:
13 In [a]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in [c]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [d] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

God has given us the Holy Spirit, as His pledge to us of our inheritance. So, if we "give up our security" as you said, then God breaks His promise?

Byblos wrote:Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

Rick, I just hope that your resurrection body doesn't still have that same evil clown face!

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Okay so here's the standard question: Can a professed believer prove by word or deed that he was never a believer?

I would say, maybe. But there are examples that probably only God knows, and this professed believer will find out when he dies.

If the answer is maybe then at most one can have is a moral assurance, not an absolute one.