Evidence for God from Science

Romans 5:18-21:
"18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

You can also look at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/rom5.pdf.

What those verses say to you? What does the expression 'made sinners' mean?

20 views and still nothing

Hana, I think overall, this is a good commentary on Romans 5. While there are bits of it I don't agree with, the overall commentary is pretty good.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/romans/romans5.htm

So, made = were constituted. May be.
There is one thing I do not understand. How come that Adam's children were dead in sin, with heart which was evil? See Gen 6:5.

1over137 wrote:So, made = were constituted. May be.
There is one thing I do not understand. How come that Adam's children were dead in sin, with heart which was evil? See Gen 6:5.

At that time, man had hardened his heart against God so much that every thought was evil. It was Adam's descendents, not his children, as in those directly born of Eve.

I have a great word study on Romans that breaks it down v. by verse. When I have time I'll post. We need to make sure we read the word "made" correctly.
The word gives the idea of conveyance. Take the example of chattel slavery. Black people in America are free today. The freedom given to their forefathers is conveyed.
Basically a lot has been discussed over the last 2,000 years about the sin nature of man.
There are really only two options for a person.
1) In Adam. This is inherited, and I would say biologically true. We all inherit from Adam, in this case the fact that we are sinners. We aren't good people who sin, but we sin because we are sinners. That doesn't mean we aren't culpable. The human, by nature, knows good and evil, another inherited trait.
2) In Christ. Sin problem solved, and person stands righteous before God. Period, end of story.

I'm in an in-depth study of Romans now, and we need to understand that Romans is building a case and answering objections as the text moves along. I have found the Middletown site to be very good as well, from past experience.

It is true that without God's help no one would be saved. Any Christian who denies that is a Pelagian, which is aberrant. It makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. If anyone could be saved apart from God's work, then the cross is just a sick joke.

The one act of condemnation: Disobedience in the Garden. Made sinners.
The one act of obedience: The cross of Christ. Made sinners.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So, made = were constituted. May be.
There is one thing I do not understand. How come that Adam's children were dead in sin, with heart which was evil? See Gen 6:5.

At that time, man had hardened his heart against God so much that every thought was evil. It was Adam's descendents, not his children, as in those directly born of Eve.

So, also Adam has hardened his heart that much? At the beginning he was made perfect. Then he sinned and then he hardened his heart.

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So, made = were constituted. May be.
There is one thing I do not understand. How come that Adam's children were dead in sin, with heart which was evil? See Gen 6:5.

At that time, man had hardened his heart against God so much that every thought was evil. It was Adam's descendents, not his children, as in those directly born of Eve.

So, also Adam has hardened his heart that much? At the beginning he was made perfect. Then he sinned and then he hardened his heart.

Hana, what do you mean when you say Adam was made "perfect"? Adam was certainly sinless, but remember, he needed the tree of life to live forever. He was made of the same flesh we have. Flesh that decays over time. Just like everything else in this physical universe.

RickD wrote:Hana, what do you mean when you say Adam was made "perfect"? Adam was certainly sinless, but remember, he needed the tree of life to live forever. He was made of the same flesh we have. Flesh that decays over time. Just like everything else in this physical universe.

I think I saw it somewhere written in the Bible. Cannot find it. Nevermind. I meant, he was good and so.
I am not talking about the flesh decay, but about the change in the heart. He obeyed God and so, and then he sinned. And from that time on, has he hardened hhis heart that much?

jlay wrote:It is true that without God's help no one would be saved. Any Christian who denies that is a Pelagian, which is aberrant. It makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. If anyone could be saved apart from God's work, then the cross is just a sick joke.

What about Noah? See Gen 6:9.

1over137 wrote:

jlay wrote:It is true that without God's help no one would be saved. Any Christian who denies that is a Pelagian, which is aberrant. It makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. If anyone could be saved apart from God's work, then the cross is just a sick joke.

What about Noah? See Gen 6:9.

It wasn't anything that NOAH did that made him righteous, it was GOD that viewed Noah as righteous.
That is the point of the Cross, that what makes us righteous is what God has done/does for Us, not what we do.

Hana,
Noah walked with who?

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

1over137 wrote:So, also Adam has hardened his heart that much? At the beginning he was made perfect. Then he sinned and then he hardened his heart.

I agree with the middle sentence in boldface but have reservations about the other two. I'll deal only with the middle sentence tonight:

The Bible doesn't specifically say that Adam was made perfect - like Lucifer - but Adam's perfection can certainly be inferred from the text. Adam, like Lucifer, represent God's highest creations in their respective realms. That they were created perfect and yet went against God's will. In Adam's case, he was created intelligent, immortal, had the Spirit of God within him, and he walked and talked with God face-to-face. (This brief description is remarkably similar to what the Eternal State will be like.) The only motivation for Adam's sin is a freewill choice on his part to go against God's will.

Since this subject seems to interest you, I suggest you get yourself a copy of Augustine's City of God. Adam's original sin and its imputation to all his descendents is masterfully explained by Augustine. Here are my suggestions:

City of God, Book XII, Chapter 21, dealing with the imputation of sin to all of Adam's descendents.
City of God, Book XXI, Chapter 12, dealing with the nature of the original sin and explaining why eternal punishment is due to all who are not covered by the Savior's grace.

FL

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:

jlay wrote:It is true that without God's help no one would be saved. Any Christian who denies that is a Pelagian, which is aberrant. It makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. If anyone could be saved apart from God's work, then the cross is just a sick joke.

What about Noah? See Gen 6:9.

It wasn't anything that NOAH did that made him righteous, it was GOD that viewed Noah as righteous.
That is the point of the Cross, that what makes us righteous is what God has done/does for Us, not what we do.

I think he was viewed rigtheous because he was faithful.

jlay wrote:Hana,
Noah walked with who?

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Noah walked with God. Yes, he had faith. The point?