Evidence for God from Science

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Hana, here's an article against the deterministic(Calvinist) view of Romans 9:
http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-re ... -romans-9/

Thanks Rick. I learned a lot from it. And it made me decide to read Matthew, Mark and Luke before reading anything else or finishing Romans. (So far I've gone through John and Acts.)

One more thing. Why God hardens poeple's hearts when they decide not to believe? I do not fully understand this. Isn't it then for them harder to return to belief?

1over137 wrote:Why does God harden people's hearts when they decide not to believe? I do not fully understand this. Isn't it then for them harder to return to belief?

Here is an analogy. You are engaged to your fiancé and you both love each other. You decide - one day - that it would be nice to get to know other men before you actually get married to Herman (your fiancé) because once you marry him, there will be no more flirting with strange men. Herman, on the other hand, doesn't like this situation and rejects you. He starts ignoring you and when you press him for attention, he becomes harsh. Your heart towards Herman hardens as a result of his actions but you were the one who started this situation by seeing strange men. Now, answer this question yourself:

Why does Herman harden my heart when I decide not to be faithful? I do not fully understand this. Isn't it then harder for me to return to belief in our future together?

End of the analogy.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:Why does God harden people's hearts when they decide not to believe? I do not fully understand this. Isn't it then for them harder to return to belief?

Here is an analogy. You are engaged to your fiancé and you both love each other. You decide - one day - that it would be nice to get to know other men before you actually get married to Herman (your fiancé) because once you marry him, there will be no more flirting with strange men. Herman, on the other hand, doesn't like this situation and rejects you. He starts ignoring you and when you press him for attention, he becomes harsh. Your heart towards Herman hardens as a result of his actions but you were the one who started this situation by seeing strange men. Now, answer this question yourself:

Why does Herman harden my heart when I decide not to be faithful? I do not fully understand this. Isn't it then harder for me to return to belief in our future together?

End of the analogy.

FL

Or to put it another way, God, being omniscient, already knew who will harden their hearts beyond return and used them in His plan.

Byblos: in the article Rick gave link to, there was mentioned situation that people lose faith and then return some day. You speak only about hardening beyond return.
FL: I understand you. I thought God actions may differ from people's actions. You know, "love is patient, love is kind, ...". So I thought that God is patient with us, that he loves us and would not help us to harden our hearts toward Him.

So I thought that God is patient with us, that he loves us and would not help us to harden our hearts toward Him.

The only heart that God ever hardENS is one that was ALREADY solid concrete! There is a point in which one's rebellion and rejection of God has become so entrenched that, for them, it has become an irreversible and ongoing act of the will. And so as God is ALL knowing and can search the depths of the human heart, He knows when this has happened - in fact, He knew this before such a person was ever born. It's not as if God hardens those who might eventually have a change of heart, that would one day be receptive and repentant.

The story of Exodus and the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is so often mentioned. But it was not as if God hardened someone who might yet repent. Pharaoh was an incredibly blood thirsty, cruel and feared man - and one who actually presented himself as a living god. He had continued the enslavement of God's covenant people and as their numbers had grown, even had ordered the midwives to kill the Hebrews' sons. No, the hardening of Pharaoh's heart started with Pharaoh's own hardness of heart. But also God's hardening had much to do with steeling Pharaoh's will to not let Israel go until Egypt had been decimated with the various plague miracles, so that by the time the Egyptian's first-borns were killed, NO ONE could miss that Israel's God was immensely powerful, and that the self-proclaimed god in their midst (Pharaoh) had been exposed as a defeated, bumbling fraud. And the miracles were so spectacular, so effective, etc, that we're still talking about them and marveling at them, even today - and to God's great glory!

1over137 wrote:Byblos: in the article Rick gave link to, there was mentioned situation that people lose faith and then return some day. You speak only about hardening beyond return.

Only God knows who will return and who won't and only He knows how each can be used for good.

1over137 wrote:FL: I understand you. I thought God actions may differ from people's actions. You know, "love is patient, love is kind, ...". So I thought that God is patient with us, that he loves us and would not help us to harden our hearts toward Him.

God and Herman do react differently! If you confess your sin and repent, God will forgive you and forget your sin; and He promises to replace your heart of stone.

I don't think Herman would be so merciful...

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:FL: I understand you. I thought God actions may differ from people's actions. You know, "love is patient, love is kind, ...". So I thought that God is patient with us, that he loves us and would not help us to harden our hearts toward Him.

God and Herman do react differently! If you confess your sin and repent, God will forgive you and forget your sin; and He promises to replace your heart of stone.

Is it then necessary that God hardens the hearts?

1over137 wrote:Is it then necessary that God hardens the hearts?

I'm confused: I don't know what you are asking. On the one hand, during our discussion in your topic Romans 5:18-21 you showed that the cause for the hardening of one's heart is one's own sinfulness (you and Augustine agree on this); and now you seem to be making God the cause of this hardening.

What is going on?

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:Is it then necessary that God hardens the hearts?

I'm confused: I don't know what you are asking. On the one hand, during our discussion in your topic Romans 5:18-21 you showed that the cause for the hardening of one's heart is one's own sinfulness (you and Augustine agree on this); and now you seem to be making God the cause of this hardening.

What is going on?

FL

Where exactly am I 'making God the cause of this hardening'? Maybe people harden themselves first. According to Romans 9:18 God is also doing some hardening and I do not understand why. Byblos mentioned that God hardens people's hearts when they harden themselves beyond return. So, God maybe does not harden people's hearts when they do not harden themselves beyond return. If this is not the case then I wonder. But it is probably the case and I do not wonder.

1over137 wrote:So, God maybe does not harden people's hearts when they do not harden themselves beyond return.

Of course, hardening one's heart beyond return implies beyond return, as in permanently. God forgives those who acknowledge their sin and repent. God also promises to forget sins that are confessed and repented.

1over137 wrote:If this is not the case then I wonder. But it is probably the case and I do not wonder.

Ahhhh....this must be what is called ''strangeness'' in quantum physics....?

FL

God doesn't harden a heart int he sense that He "snaps" His omnipotent fingers and He MAKES a person NOT believe.
God simply says to them "THY will be done" and in giving them up to themselves, he allows their hearts to harden because that is what they want.

Paul is right.

I think hardening of heart is more of a figure of speech, like saying, love with all your heart, literally speaking we know the heart is a pumping machine that regulates blood in the body so the heart does't think or believe anything. This may lead to elsewhere but my point is, sometimes we wrongly interpret the figure of speech as it is used. God hardening their hearts is simply letting them be what they want to be and not interfering. Hardening of heart results as the consequence of sin and the agreement to carry it forward without being answerable to anyone. In English as they say you are dead set on something. It means being stubborn beyond reason and that is what I think hardening of heart means.

When the authors use such expressions, most of the time they do it to show God's sovereignty above all, his omniscient and merciful nature.