Evidence for God from Science

Here is part of one sermon dealing with Matthew 5:13:
"So the saved are the salt. The verb here, este, stresses being. The stress is on being, what we are and what we continue to be. We are the salt, we continue to be the salt, and we are the only salt in the world. Let me add this, it's not what we should be, it's what we are. Like it or not, you're the salt of the earth. The only question is whether you're salty or whether you've lost your salty flavor. You are the salt; you either have savor or you don't.

The idea isn't, "Please be salt," it's, "You are salt." The only question is whether you're salty. You are light; the only question is whether you're on or not. That's all. If you are a believer, you're salt. If you're a believer, you're light. You're not going to get to be salt. You can't say, "I'm a new Christian and I would certainly like to attain salt." No. "I'm growing toward being light." No, you are light. You are salt. The question is whether you've got taste and shine."

My question is, according to Bible, what will really happen with those who lost their salty flavor? What to be thrown out really means?

1over137 wrote:My question is, according to Bible, what will really happen with those who lost their salty flavor? What to be thrown out really means?

I read your question, above, then I went to the park so that my dog could meet up with her dog friends and they could all play together. This park is very large and treeless; I would say that it is about 600m wide by 800m long. The park encompasses 10 football fields and when nothing is going on there, a group of radio-controlled aircraft (RC-A/C) enthusiasts go there and fly their toys around & around. So it was today, and the dogs would occasionally chase the RC-A/C without ever catching one.

I once told one of these enthusiasts that I was a pilot and after chatting a little, he handed be the controls. After moving the levers around, I lost control of the RC-A/C and it plummeted to the ground. I've had the same problem with computer flight simulators: I always crash the airplanes. Now, in over 30 years of flying real airplanes, I've never crashed once. I've always come back safely to the ground.

Put this in the back of your mind for the moment.

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In order that Matthew 5:13 be understood in its context, which starts at Mt 5:3 and properly describes the true children of God, let's go through it verse-by-verse:

Mt 5:3, the poor in spirit are those who are poor in fleshly spirit because they have been baptized in the HS and ''theirs is the kingdom of heaven.''

Mt 5:4, those who mourn are those who have died to the ways of the world and are comforted by the hope given by faith.

Mt 5:5, the meek are blessed because God hates the proud of heart and they will inherit the [new] earth.

Mt 5:6, those who thirst after the righteousness that only God can give will be satisfied; only they will be satisfied.

Mt 5:7, those who have been shown mercy by God will necessarily show mercy to fellow sinners, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Mt 5:8, those having a heart circumcised by the Spirit will see God. see Romans 2:29.

Mt 5:9, see James 3:18. peace comes as a result of God's grace freely given to the saved.

Mt 5:10, 11, 12, persecution of some sort is a sure sign of salvation.

Matthew 5:1-12 describe what a true believer is: alive in the HS, alive in heaven, meek like Jesus, loving the righteousness that is from God, merciful towards repentful sinners, having a heart by and for God, bestowing peace around them, and being maligned/ridiculed for all this.

Now for Mt 5:13: what is salt used for? Well, salt gives taste to food, it is a preservative, it can be used to melt ice...salt is a desireable substance and Jesus is using it here in that way.* Those who are the ''salt of the earth'' can be understood as those who are the genuine followers of God, as opposed to those who just follow a ritual, a religion, thinking it will bring salvation. there are other parables in the Bible that confirm this clear interpretation of Mt 5:13. These are:

-Isa 1:21-25, where spiritual adultery is condemned.
-Lk 11:24, 25, 26, where Jesus describes the aftermath of a false conversion & repentence.
-2 Pe 2:17-22, where Peter describes the fate of nominal (Nominal: in name only) Christians.

There are numerous parables that Jesus told to illustrate who are the real believers:

-Mt 22:1-14, parable of the wedding banquet.
-Mt 25:1-13, parable of the 10 virgins.
-Mt 25:14-30, parable of the talents.
-Mt 25:31-46, parable of the sheep & goats.

So, who are the true believers, those who will get into heaven? Mt 8:12 answers this. The Jews in Jesus' time thought they were priviledged because to them were entrusted the Law and the Prophets and the very words of God. They failed, as history is a witness, and most of institutionalized Christianity has failed as well. To all of these, Jesus will say, ''away from me you evildoers. I never knew you.'' (Mt 7:22, 23)

Likewise, those who are the ''salt which has lost its saltiness'' will be thrown out and trampled on. They were never true believers.

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Back to my pilot analogy: a real pilot can fly a real airplane. He may crash a computer flight simulator, he may crash an radio-controlled aircraft, as these two have little to do with flying a real airplane. Though they represent flight, they are facsimiles. Likewise, a nominal Christian has nothing to do with a real Christian: one appears real, one is real. Ultimately, one dies and goes to hell, the other lives forever with the Lord.

FL

*I've also heard that in Jesus' day ''salt'' was a mixture of various minerals and that it was possible for this ''salt'' to lose its saltiness.

Will they really go to hell? Because faith is what saves http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alon ... -works-too. The sermon in my previous post says that even when salt looses its flavor it is still salt, which probably means that they still have faith. How to solve this discrepancy?

1over137 wrote:Will they really go to hell? Because faith is what saves http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alon ... -works-too. The sermon in my previous post says that even when salt looses its flavor it is still salt, which probably means that they still have faith. How to solve this discrepancy?

I looked for a verse in the Bible that says that salt which has lost its saltiness is still salt, but could not find one. So, you'll have to show me where it says that unsalty salt is still salt, or that unfaithful faith is still a saving faith. As for the RCC, Byblos could better explain their position on salvation. All I can say is that it is similar to the Protestant position in that faith alone saves; if it were otherwise, Roman Catholics would have a hard time explaining the theif on the cross and his workless salvation.

FL

Then unsalty salt is not salt. (I will take this position until somone show me otherwise.)

Likewise, those who are the ''salt which has lost its saltiness'' will be thrown out and trampled on. They were never true believers.

Really? Is that a standard you want to be judged by?
How do you know if you are salty enough?
Jesus is addressing Jews. He is addressing Jews as the Messaiah, the one who would restore the earthly promises to Israel.
To take this text and then just start inserting yourself into it, or inserting the modern church is not rightly dividing the Word. The SOM has a lot to teach us. And it certainly is a valid ideal. humility, meekness, mercy, purity. But this is essentially the new covenant promised to Israel, and Jesus is explaining how it should and will be for Israel living under it. If individual salvation is by "being" salty enough, then salvation is NOT by believing Christ. There is no assurance, since salvation is based on saltiness and not whether you actually trusted Christ as savior. What a dangerous and self-condemning standard to place on one's self.

The Bible addresses Israel corporately. And it addresses people individually.

Jlay: what do you think the verse 13 is about?

jlay wrote:

Likewise, those who are the ''salt which has lost its saltiness'' will be thrown out and trampled on. They were never true believers.

Really? Is that a standard you want to be judged by?
How do you know if you are salty enough?
Jesus is addressing Jews. He is addressing Jews as the Messaiah, the one who would restore the earthly promises to Israel.
To take this text and then just start inserting yourself into it, or inserting the modern church is not rightly dividing the Word. The SOM has a lot to teach us. And it certainly is a valid ideal. humility, meekness, mercy, purity. But this is essentially the new covenant promised to Israel, and Jesus is explaining how it should and will be for Israel living under it. If individual salvation is by "being" salty enough, then salvation is NOT by believing Christ. There is no assurance, since salvation is based on saltiness and not whether you actually trusted Christ as savior. What a dangerous and self-condemning standard to place on one's self.

The Bible addresses Israel corporately. And it addresses people individually.

Very well said.
As believers and those under Christ we AMY be able to judge the actions of others, but we most certainly can't judge the faith of OTHERS.
When we do judge we must always remember Christ' words in the matter:
Judge not lest ye be judged for it is why thy one measure of judgement that thou shall be judged.

All of Matthew Chapter 5 is a statement of WHO are those that believe and in what condition they made be found and what is to "distinguish" them in how they act:
The Sermon on the Mount; The Beatitudes

5 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the [a]mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3 “ Blessed are the [c]poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the [d]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Disciples and the World

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [e]can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [f]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [g]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Personal Relationships

21 “ You have heard that [k]the ancients were told, ‘ You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be [l]liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be [m]guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘[n]You good-for-nothing,’ shall be [o]guilty before [p] the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be [q]guilty enough to go into the [r] fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [t]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last [v]cent.

27 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z] hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad] hell.

31 “It was said, ‘ Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who [ae]divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [af]divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that [ag]the ancients were told, ‘[ah] You shall not [ai]make false vows, but shall fulfill your [aj]vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or [ak]by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.

38 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may [ap]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore [aq] you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I finally managed to find a good explanation:

8. Thrown out and trampled under foot

The association of salt with wisdom in the final words of Matt 5:13 is clarified by Mark’s Gospel. There we find a parallel phrase, “Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it?” (Mark 9:50a WEB), which falls in the conclusion of an exchange between Jesus and his disciples. This discussion concerns the fate of those who abuse their authority and lead the trusting into idolatrous error (see notes on Mark 9:36-50). 

Jesus’ suggests that it is better for leaders to suffer the ultimate sanctions under the covenant of Moab (Deut 28:64-65), of captivity, servitude and exile, than continue to be allowed to lead the trusting astray.  When those entrusted with ensuring that the covenant was kept, i.e. Israel’s ‘salt’, stopped listening to God’s words, then they became foolish and the curses began to bite. It had happened in the Northern kingdom with the consequent destruction of the nation and exile of its people. It had then happened in Judah, with similar results. However, in Judah’s case, because of God’s faithfulness to the heirs of David, he preserved a remnant from that house, a pinch of salt that had not become foolish. 

The whole issue of salt loosing its saltiness was tied, through the covenant of Moab, to doing all the words of the law (Deut 29:9, 29). If the human salt entrusted with preserving the law lost their salty wisdom then there was no hope of achieving such full compliance. Thus, when God’s people turned their back on the law, they, along with their ineffective “salt”, risked being cast out to suffer a downtrodden existence among the nations. Little wonder then that fulfilling every last word of the law would, in a few verses, become the focus of the Sermon. Tom Wright suggests that the Sermon on the mount was “a challenge to Israel to be Israel” (Wright 2001, 288), but I would suggest that in this passage we have a challenge to Israel’s spiritual leaders to ensure that Israel continues to be Israel.

It is from http://www.sermononthemount.org.uk/Matt ... etail.html

In regards to the "salt of the earth" part, Jesus is making a statement that, when we lose what makes us, US, who are we?
If we as believers lose what makes US believers, are we still believers?
And if we believe, how should we act?
We are to be the light of the world:
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [f]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [g]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

And to be more righteous than those of their days ( Pharisees and scribes) pretended to be ie: lead by example in our actions not our words.


Jesus then goes on to state how He has come to fullfill that Law and what that means:
7 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Ands now that, in Christ, that law is fullfilled, what do we have? what do we do with the Law?

And Christ answers by showing the the old law is now a STARTING point and NOT the end:



21 “ You have heard that [k]the ancients were told, ‘ You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be [l]liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be [m]guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘[n]You good-for-nothing,’ shall be [o]guilty before [p] the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be [q]guilty enough to go into the [r] fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [t]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last [v]cent.

27 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z] hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad] hell.

31 “It was said, ‘ Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who [ae]divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [af]divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that [ag]the ancients were told, ‘[ah] You shall not [ai]make false vows, but shall fulfill your [aj]vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or [ak]by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.

38 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may [ap]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore [aq] you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1over137 wrote:Jlay: what do you think the verse 13 is about?

Let's ask this question. Who was to be the "light to the nations?"
Isaiah 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles.

Let's realize what Jesus and the disciples weren't preaching. They weren't saying, "Jesus is going to die on a cross, and then raise from the dead." The allusions to this were veiled and the disciples were totally clueless. Jesus was teaching and preaching the Kingdom. Specifically the earthly kingdom tied to a specific people and a specific land. Jesus was preaching that this Kingdom was at hand. What was Israel to do? Repent, believe it and be baptized by water.
When Israel was in covenant with God it was unmistakable. Prosperity, victory, and power. The nations of the world would be drawn to God through His people. The New Covenant would also have unmistakable evidence. Israel restored with signs and wonders.

If Israel rejected this covenant then it is no longer a light, and no longer salty.
So, if Israel was to be a light to the nations, then why do we see Paul called as the apostle to the Gentiles? Corporately, this is what Israel was to do. Yet, they didn't. They rejected the truth of the Messiah and they were cut off.

jlay wrote:

1over137 wrote:Jlay: what do you think the verse 13 is about?

Let's ask this question. Who was to be the "light to the nations?"
Isaiah 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles.

Let's realize what Jesus and the disciples weren't preaching. They weren't saying, "Jesus is going to die on a cross, and then raise from the dead." The allusions to this were veiled and the disciples were totally clueless. Jesus was teaching and preaching the Kingdom. Specifically the earthly kingdom tied to a specific people and a specific land. Jesus was preaching that this Kingdom was at hand. What was Israel to do? Repent, believe it and be baptized by water.
When Israel was in covenant with God it was unmistakable. Prosperity, victory, and power. The nations of the world would be drawn to God through His people. The New Covenant would also have unmistakable evidence. Israel restored with signs and wonders.

If Israel rejected this covenant then it is no longer a light, and no longer salty.
So, if Israel was to be a light to the nations, then why do we see Paul called as the apostle to the Gentiles? Corporately, this is what Israel was to do. Yet, they didn't. They rejected the truth of the Messiah and they were cut off.

I would add that, Israel was told to repent from its' path of destruction ( rebellion against Rome) and that if they did not rebel, the God's judgment would come as it did in 70AD.
IF Israel had repented from its path and embraced Christ and focused om the kingdom that was God's and not Caesar, they would have survived.