Evidence for God from Science

Here is a question that came to me which I did not have a clear answer on regarding the below quoted verse from the book of 1 John:

1 John 5:16, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that." ESV

The passage points out the, There is sin that leads to death not yo pray for, therefore any ideas what this is?

What puzzles me is that the wages of sin is death as Romans 6:23 states (so all sin leads to death). Is 1 John 5:16 pointing out that there is some sort of specific sin that leads to death? What is it in your opinion?
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I have always thought this to be the attitude that one sets on sinning without repentance. That is after you are a brother and Christian and you lose the fear of God and which may also result in him compromising on sins in life. John clearly points out earlier in the letter that we all sin and that if we repent then God forgives us, so that covers those who hate sin, realize that it is wrong and that it severs our relationship with God, even though they fall into it numerous times, that to me presents the believer.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," (1 Jn. 1:9)

But what I do think the verse in question leads to, is when we are praying for someone who is a christian and is blatantly disobeying God, has no fear of God and at that point perhaps only have a faith which is non-existent or is absent and therefore he is in rebellion. The latter results in apostasy but John is clearly talking about believers.

The verse perhaps, tells us to not to pray for those who do wish to repent anymore, hypocrites may be, those who call themselves righteous and still willfully disobey God with a hardening of heart. I think this kind of rebellion leads to the spiritual death to which John is pointing at. I do not think physical death is in question here since we all die eventually.

I would look at the account of Annanias and Sapphira. I think we can say that their sin led to death.

John clearly points out earlier in the letter that we all sin and that if we repent then God forgives us

Are you saying then, that for the believer today that God's forgiveness is conditional on our repenting the right way, and the right amount, each time we sin?
And how are you using the word, "repent?"

B. W. Not sure if this helps:http://carm.org/apologetics/verses-exam ... ding-death

It is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying then, that for the believer today that God's forgiveness is conditional on our repenting the right way, and the right amount, each time we sin?

No, but I do believe it has to do everything with our attitude towards God. We all sin, that is fine, I believe God forgives us for everything, we don't have to bow down over and over for something,. However there is a difference between a God fearing attitude and a bold to sin attitude. In fact one can sin all their life (and we do) and yet still be justified in Christ. For it is not the amount of sin or repentance which counts but faith in Christ. In my observation, people who tend to be bold to sin without considering the atonement of Christ to be a gift, tend to have that hardening of heart and there by their faith is reduced to no more than a superficial veil of righteousness, where no amount of sin matters as long as they are "Christians".

For it is not sin which ultimately leads to death as Christ forgives our sins, but the lack of faith, the lack of agreement that we need Christ to be saved, the lack of fear of God, and also the same thing that John points out 1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

There are no works involved like in the O.T, simply that we understand that sin is a hindrance in our relationship with God, that it is wrong.

I am using the word repent the same way the verse is using, meaning to profess, agree, concede, acknowledge. People who stop agreeing that sin is harmful (and I am talking about Christians here) are the people that are in danger of the death that John talks about. At least that is what I think.

All sin no matter what sin it is leads to death. Blaspheming the HS is an "unforgivable" sin. The law points to sin and is a law unto death.

I agree with PaulSacramento, it'd the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to deny, ignore, and/or act against the Spirit when He works on your heart. To ignore/deny His conviction and His guidance is blasphemy, since He's G-d, and it cannot be forgiven because we can't come to Christ except through the working of the Spirit. It's being given the chance to accept the Messiah and rejecting it, thereby blaspheming the Spirit Who convicts us.

Hebrews 10:26-29
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgement and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Torah of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of G-d, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the Covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of Grace?"

Notice the last few words, "insulted the Spirit of Grace."

Also see Hebrews 6:4-8 and 2 Peter 2:20-22.

B. W. wrote:Here is a question that came to me which I did not have a clear answer on regarding the below quoted verse from the book of 1 John:

1 John 5:16, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that." ESV

The passage points out the, There is sin that leads to death not yo pray for, therefore any ideas what this is?

What puzzles me is that the wages of sin is death as Romans 6:23 states (so all sin leads to death). Is 1 John 5:16 pointing out that there is some sort of specific sin that leads to death? What is it in your opinion?
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This verse pretty much debunks the unbiblical doctrine of "once saved, always saved." The sin that leads to death is what the Catholic Church calls a mortal sin, or a total rejection of God. We are saved through grace, but God respects our free will to reject his free gift. The sin that leads to death is a sin where we willfully sperate ourselves from God, which results in eternal death (damnation) if we die before restoring our relationship with God.

dells, you assert that the verses you quoted debunk OSAS, yet you don't provide any evidence or explanation to back up your claim. Please enlighten us.

inlovewiththe44 wrote:dells, you assert that the verses you quoted debunk OSAS, yet you don't provide any evidence or explanation to back up your claim. Please enlighten us.

It's important to read scripture in light of the rest of scripture, avoiding one-verseism, so I think the best way to back up what I've said here is to quote other verses. But first I will give a more detailed version of my explanation.

I think that reading the verse, the most reasonable conclusion-though I am open to listening to other conclusions-is that John is distinguising between two types of sins-those that lead to death, and those that don't. In context, I think spiritual death, or eternal damnation, makes more sense than earthly death, as there are very few types of sin that directly cause earthly death, outside of perhaps suicide or extreme drinking or drug abuse. Assuming John was referring to earthly death, it would be strange for him to ask us not to pray for those who are commiting sins that directly endanger thier lives. If there is a sin that can lead a saved man to lose his salvation, that would contradict OSAS, and I propose that this interpretation is correct, as it best correlates to the whole of scripture.

Three other verses make this point abundantly clear. While our salvation has already been won for us on the cross, it is up to us to accept that free gift. Paul speaks of how he runs the race to the end, lest he be disqualified: "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." (1 Cor 9:24-27) If Paul's salvation was gaurunteed, there would be no need for his fear of being disqualified at the end. I posit that this disqualification is the same as the sin that leads to death referred to by John.

In Phil 2:12, Paul commands the Phillipians to work out thier salvation in fear and trembling. Doesn't sound like salvation wasn't gaurunteed in Phillipi.

1 Cor. 3:12–15:
"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

dellsOfBittersweet wrote: Assuming John was referring to earthly death, it would be strange for him to ask us not to pray for those who are commiting sins that directly endanger thier lives. If there is a sin that can lead a saved man to lose his salvation, that would contradict OSAS, and I propose that this interpretation is correct, as it best correlates to the whole of scripture.

Here, why do you immediately jump from sins that cause earthly death, to those that cause loss of salvation for those that are already saved? All sin causes death of the spirit, UNLESS one is bought by Christ's sacrifice. I'm not sure how you go full speed into assuming that one can lose their salvation when the Bible simply states that sin causes spiritual death. That's all it is speaking of.

dellsOfBittersweet wrote: While our salvation has already been won for us on the cross, it is up to us to accept that free gift.

I completely agree here.

dellsOfBittersweet wrote:Paul speaks of how he runs the race to the end, lest he be disqualified: "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." (1 Cor 9:24-27) If Paul's salvation was guaranteed, there would be no need for his fear of being disqualified at the end. I posit that this disqualification is the same as the sin that leads to death referred to by John.

Although I do not know the exact context for these verses (I'm sure someone like Jac, Jlay, or others do), taken out of context, these verses make it seem that one has to EARN the "prize" aka salvation, which you said yourself is not the case. It is a GIFT. These verses, pulled out of context actually work against your claim that salvation is a free gift, no strings attached.

dellsOfBittersweet wrote:1 Cor. 3:12–15:
"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Notice the bold, this also works against you. No doubt, our actions as Christians do hold weight, they have no bearing on our salvation. This is an example of scripture that supports a "you reap what you sow" kind of philosophy. There will be rewards in heaven, or so it seems from topics on this forum and verses I have read on my own.

I step away from the forum for a little while and come back to immediately find an OSAS debate. This should be interesting.

My $.02, I wholeheartedly do not believe that a truly saved person can be lost. Reason being, we aren't left up to our own devices. The HS helps us, and God whips our butt if need be, but we are not on our own. Christ didn't say, "Here's a get out of jail free card, don't loose it." He promised to find his sheep that wander astray, but he never promised to be gentle in bringing us back. I strongly feel that sin and faith stand in direct opposition. Where one is practiced, the other is weakened. If left to our own, we would sin enough to destroy our faith. That's where the discipline of God comes in. I've felt it. It hurt...

I'm not wholeheartedly convinced of my opinion on the sin unto death, but I feel that it may be the last straw in the life of a backsliding Christian. God sees them reach a point where if they go on any farther, they will loose their faith due to apathy, or something similar. They have not responded to his discipline thus far. As a result, this person's life is cut short to keep that from happening. Doesn't Paul admonish one of his churches and point out that many are sick due to their extremely unkind treatment of fellow Christians?

jestes wrote:I step away from the forum for a little while and come back to immediately find an OSAS debate. This should be interesting.

My $.02, I wholeheartedly do not believe that a truly saved person can be lost. Reason being, we aren't left up to our own devices. The HS helps us, and God whips our butt if need be, but we are not on our own. Christ didn't say, "Here's a get out of jail free card, don't loose it." He promised to find his sheep that wander astray, but he never promised to be gentle in bringing us back. I strongly feel that sin and faith stand in direct opposition. Where one is practiced, the other is weakened. If left to our own, we would sin enough to destroy our faith. That's where the discipline of God comes in. I've felt it. It hurt...

I'm not wholeheartedly convinced of my opinion on the sin unto death, but I feel that it may be the last straw in the life of a backsliding Christian. God sees them reach a point where if they go on any farther, they will loose their faith due to apathy, or something similar. They have not responded to his discipline thus far. As a result, this person's life is cut short to keep that from happening. Doesn't Paul admonish one of his churches and point out that many are sick due to their extremely unkind treatment of fellow Christians?

Interesting point jestes and makes sense too in light of what Jesus said on the matter...
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But that brings up the question, yet again, how much do you have to sin in order for it to be the last straw? How much sin is too much?