Evidence for God from Science

Matthew 5:17-20:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

My first question is what is here meant by the Law. Which commandments? And from where I can see that.

At the time of Jesus there were the Laws of the Torah (600+) and also some minor Laws that were expanded versions of the basic LAws of the Torah ( like further restrictions in regards to the sabbath) but we are NOT sure if Jesus meant ALL the Laws or just the 10 commandments ( since he overruled many of the laws that were NOT of the 10 such as the food restrictions, behaviour towards enemies, divorce, etc) BUT even assuming he meant ALL the Laws, what did He say and what did he mean?
First off, we have to take ALL of chapter 5 into account and not just a few verses and we need to take into account what was said before AND after these verses.
We have discussed this before on another of your threads, CHapter 5 is all about WHO are his disciples and HOW they must behave if they are truly his followers and who is blessed and why.
Before 17-20 we have:

5 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the [a]mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3 “ Blessed are the [c]poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the [d]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Disciples and the World

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [e]can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [f]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [g]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

and after we have:

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Personal Relationships

21 “ You have heard that [k]the ancients were told, ‘ You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be [l]liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be [m]guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘[n]You good-for-nothing,’ shall be [o]guilty before [p] the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be [q]guilty enough to go into the [r] fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [t]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last [v]cent.

27 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z] hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad] hell.

31 “It was said, ‘ Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who [ae]divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [af]divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that [ag]the ancients were told, ‘[ah] You shall not [ai]make false vows, but shall fulfill your [aj]vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or [ak]by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.

38 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may [ap]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore [aq] you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus has fulfilled the Law AND the (revelation) of the Prophets and because He has done this, the Law is fulfilled and now a "new" Law/covenant is to be followed, not replacing to old one per say, but expanding/revising the old one.
Look what Jesus says:

I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

He makes the statement of the importance of the Law and that it is fullfilled in Him, giving Him the authority to give NEW commandments, which we see happening in verses 21-48.
He takes a typical view of the Old Law and "overrules" it with the NEW Law, an example:

31 “It was said, ‘ Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who [ae]divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [af]divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that [ag]the ancients were told, ‘[ah] You shall not [ai]make false vows, but shall fulfill your [aj]vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or [ak]by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.

Jesus takes the Old Law and makes a new one showing that the old law was fine in pointing out what was wrong, BUT the new Law given by Jesus points to what is right.

Jac, provided a link in another recent thread that touches this subject.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_law_hays.html

jlay wrote:Jac, provided a link in another recent thread that touches this subject.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_law_hays.html

Thanks. Unfortunately there is not mentioned the verse 18 (or I do not see it). How to explain this verse?

1over137 wrote:

jlay wrote:Jac, provided a link in another recent thread that touches this subject.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_law_hays.html

Thanks. Unfortunately there is not mentioned the verse 18 (or I do not see it). How to explain this verse?

What does the verse say?
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Well, was "all accomplished'"?

For a Christian the answer may will be yes, in Christ and His death and resurrection, ALL was accomplished.
The Law and the prophets pointed to Christ, to salvation in Christ.
The Law pointed out what Sin was, Christ was the answer to that sin and His words are how we are to live with the new understanding of the law that HE left Us.

And what about the phrase 'until heaven and earth pass away'?

It is a way of saying that what is being said to happen is unchangeable and will happen with certainty, it signifies the importance of the act with which it is being associated.

I found the verse on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:18. They say:

"The main debate over the interpretation of this verse is just how absolute it is. Schweizer feels that "until heaven and earth pass away" means that the Mosaic Law will only last until the end times, and will be superseded in the messianic age. He argues that the opening "for truly I say to you" is "typical of statements concerning the eschaton." He also believes that this verse is a modification of the clearly eschatological one at Mark 13:31.[7] France disagrees feeling that "until heaven and earth pass away" is simply an idiom for the inconceivable."

I also found the following: http://tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm:

"Go back to Matthew 5:18 and see where Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" Here He said that the law would not pass away until what? Until two other things passed away. What were they? First, "Till heaven and earth pass;" and, secondly, "till all (the law) be fulfilled." We know the law was fulfilled in Christ, and all prophecies relating to Israel fulfilled by 70 A.D. We all realize that because of this all the law was now over. But how could this be, when "heaven and earth" had not passed away, for Jesus said "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"? Maybe we can understand this better if we realize He was not talking about the literal heaven and earth, but something else. Something else would have to pass away before it could be said that the law was not still in effect.

In the New Testament especially, the destruction of heaven and earth refers not to the physical universe, but rather it relates to the final passing of the disobedient nation of Israel. All would be fulfilled, every jot and tittle, when heaven and earth passed away. (Matt. 5:18).

We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.
... (continues)"

I find the third option most reasonable.

1over137 wrote:I find the third option most reasonable.

What is the third option? Your post isn't clear...

FL

Typical apocolyptic language like "till heaven and earth pass away" ( Heaven doesn't pass away), "the skies rolling up", etc were just expressions of the magnitude of an event that is "life changing" for the people it was direct too.

Many viewed Jesus' remarks about the fall of jerusalem to have significance BEYOND that because of the apocalyptiuc language he used ( coming of the son of man in the clouds and so forth), but that type of imagery was typical when trying to make the audience understand the immense theological significance of a worldly event, much like we have in Isaiah and elsewhere.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:I find the third option most reasonable.

What is the third option? Your post isn't clear...

FL

What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.

If you read over Isaiah 25 and onward, you see the typical language of a Prophet warning Israel of upcoming destruction because of the path they were on.
The audience of Jesus would have KNOWN these words from Isaiah and seen in Jesus' words, the same type of message.
Repent Israel, from your path that will lead to your destruction, where "all the world would be destroyed in God's Judgment".
As it did happen in 70AD, when the very generation that Jesus addressed this to was still around, just as He said they would be.

1over137 wrote:What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.

That is an heretic site. You are going down a wrong path.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.

That is an heretic site. You are going down a wrong path.

FL

It looks like they are "Christian Universalists".