Evidence for God from Science

Could someone explain (or attempt to) this section:

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Not looking to bash the JW's rather understand the passage.

THe JW's believe that this number is literal and concrete and ONLY those 144K will be in Heaven with God and the rest of the JW's ( of course) will be serving on Earth, when Earth becomes paradise after the Final Judgment.

PaulSacramento wrote:THe JW's believe that this number is literal and concrete and ONLY those 144K will be in Heaven with God and the rest of the JW's ( of course) will be serving on Earth, when Earth becomes paradise after the Final Judgment.

Right on. The JW's used to have a "one class system" of "Christians" until 1935 when the total number of JW's surpassed 144,000. Then uh oh....new light!

As I know "authority" figures in the denomination, they all agree that the "literal" number was certainly filled prior to the founding of the denomination. 120,000 in Ninevah alone. And then the thousands at Pentecost and so forth.

1stjohn0666 wrote:As I know "authority" figures in the denomination, they all agree that the "literal" number was certainly filled prior to the founding of the denomination. 120,000 in Ninevah alone. And then the thousands at Pentecost and so forth.

So you do know "authority" figures in the denomination?

Nice to see now how your belief system developed john666 - Now on to answer the topics question – who are the 144,000 thousand – well The Jewish New Testament Commentary answers this very well:

The Jewish New Testament Commentary wrote: Revelation 14:1

In this chapter God is shown working behind the scenes of history, preparing rewards for his people and punishments for those who disobey him. Believers are warned against falling away and encouraged to remain faithful.

Revelation 14:1

The slain Lamb (Rev5:6) is seen on Mount Tziyon (Mount Zion), the highest point in Jerusalem. In 4 Ezra the seer is told that he "whom the Most High is keeping many ages and through whom he will deliver his creation [i.e., the Messiah] will stand on the summit of Mount Zion. Yes, Zion shall come and be seen by everyone, prepared and built, just as you saw the mountain cut out without hands. But he, my Son, will reprove the nations who have come for their ungodliness." (4 Ezra 13:26, 4 Ezra 13:36-37).

Here "Zion" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem; see Heb 12:22.

The 144,000 are the Messianic Jews of Rev 7:4. Their foreheads are "sealed" (Rev7:2-3 Rev 9:4) with both the Lamb's name and his Father's name (contrast Rev13:16-17). One of the two t'fillin is worn on the forehead and contains the Father's name, YHVH (see Rev13:16-17); it symbolizes complete devotion and open profession. These 144,000 will be equally open and devoted about proclaiming the name of the Lamb, Yeshua.

I know authority figures of many denominations and lack there of, and other faiths.

The main point all Christians need to stop and consider before allowing the JW to lead you down one of their many little rabbet trails, (that have absolutly no salvation what so ever attached to them) is the point of, "Who is "justified as righteous" in the eyes of God. You see they are taught that only their 'so called 144000, and (yes you guessed it) they are all Jehovah Witnesses. They are taught that only these few are the only ones worthy to partake of the Communion of the Lord's Supper! Yes only these few (they are justified as righteous in the eyes of God.

This is one of 10 bible subjects they hate to think or talk about a subject their little 'book studies never talk about so the JW will not want to talk about when ever these subjects are brought to the table. So they simple are left with luring innocent minds away to their 'book studies that talk about subjects that might be interesting, but tells them nothing about the relationship that both the Father and the son wants with each believer.

The Apostle Paul taught that each believer was justified as righteous, ('Right with God').
Anyway, Don't plan on getting any positive feed back from our JW acquaintances on this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjtKZO8Nu3Y

I don't know much about JW's quite honestly, I should really read up on them.

PaulSacramento wrote:THe JW's believe that this number is literal and concrete and ONLY those 144K will be in Heaven with God and the rest of the JW's ( of course) will be serving on Earth, when Earth becomes paradise after the Final Judgment.

The jw's bible is not the same bible that most Christians use. Their founder in the 1800's rewrote their bible to suit their beliefs. I believe his name was Russell, but I may be mistaken. They don't believe in Christ's divinity (they say he is a god), the Trinity (they say the teaching of the Trinity was a conspiracy perpetrated on the "real" Christians--of course those would be only jw's--and refute the teaching of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit), allegiance to any country (they will not say the Pledge of Allegiance), blood transfusions, and many other things.

ClassicalTeacher wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:THe JW's believe that this number is literal and concrete and ONLY those 144K will be in Heaven with God and the rest of the JW's ( of course) will be serving on Earth, when Earth becomes paradise after the Final Judgment.

The jw's bible is not the same bible that most Christians use. Their founder in the 1800's rewrote their bible to suit their beliefs. I believe his name was Russell, but I may be mistaken. They don't believe in Christ's divinity (they say he is a god), the Trinity (they say the teaching of the Trinity was a conspiracy perpetrated on the "real" Christians--of course those would be only jw's--and refute the teaching of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit), allegiance to any country (they will not say the Pledge of Allegiance), blood transfusions, and many other things.

That is not correct.
Russell didn't re-write anything and up untill about the 50's the JW's used the Authorized Version of the bible ( KJV).
It was under the leadership of Knorr and under the guidance of Fred Franz that the "New World Translation" was created.
And yes, it was re-translated to suit the doctrines of the Watchtower.
They believe that Archangel Michael is Christ, that he is the ONLY archangel.
That Christ is NOT of the same nature as God but a created being.
The HS is simply an impersonal "force".
Only 144K are annointed and only they will rule in heaven with God, the rest of ONLY the JW's are the "other sheep" or "great crowd" that will be in the "New Jerusalem" which is paradise on Earth.
That when people die their soul goes to sleep and at the resurrection, God puts the soul back into a "copy" of their bodies with all memory of their passed life ( and the loved ones that were not resurrected) erased so as they will not feel any sadness.

RazorSwift wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:THe JW's believe that this number is literal and concrete and ONLY those 144K will be in Heaven with God and the rest of the JW's ( of course) will be serving on Earth, when Earth becomes paradise after the Final Judgment.

Right on. The JW's used to have a "one class system" of "Christians" until 1935 when the total number of JW's surpassed 144,000. Then uh oh....new light!

I don't know this as a fact, but I've read it on another forum that at one time jw's wouldn't allow blacks into their group. Obviously, that isn't true anymore--Michael Jackson and his family are jw's.

I don't know this as a fact, but I've read it on another forum that at one time jw's wouldn't allow blacks into their group. Obviously, that isn't true anymore--Michael Jackson and his family are jw's.

Michael Jackson is white! ... He changed his color so he could be saved... it all makes sense now!!

Sun-clothed woman or (Man-Child) Rev 12:5 is national Israel. Cannot represent the church as part nor in whole... the CHURCH is raptured in 4:1 before the events in 4-22. The sealing would be I think protection through first 6 trumpets... then in heaven immediately after the 7th. They are the first-fruits to God from Israel after the rapture of every saved Jew and Gentile of the church- not saved before the rapture or else they would simply go up with us in the rapture.

The Great Multitude in White Robes
revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that NO ONE COULD COUNT, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

sorry but the 144000 are not the jehovah witness as they believe to go to heaven, its the 12 tribes of isreal that are sealed for the jews

vanquish29 wrote:The Great Multitude in White Robes
revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that NO ONE COULD COUNT, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

sorry but the 144000 are not the jehovah witness as they believe to go to heaven, its the 12 tribes of isreal that are sealed for the jews

Agreed since they are actually NAMED as such, but hey, just because something is explicit doesn't mean it is to be viewed that way, at least not according to them.