Evidence for God from Science

From my blog, your thoughts would be greatly welcome...
http://johnadavid.wordpress.com/2012/08 ... -neighbor/

lol...no comments. it was that bad...sheesh!

I suggest that you paste the article here if you want discussion about it. Just posting the link here is frowned upon...

Neo, I think the overall message you're trying to convey is a good message. We as Christians should love our neighbor. I have a few questions/comments.

How does this convey to our lives? I can only speak for myself, but if I saw a guy lying on the side of the road who I knew was beaten and robbed, unless he was dressed like Richard Simmons, and holding a "Gay Pride" sign, how would I know he was a gay man that needed help?

I guess what I'm asking, is how you see the biblical passage from Luke, replacing the man who was robbed and beaten, with a "gay man" who was robbed and beaten, applying to us? Are you saying that if Christians saw a man on the side of the road who they knew was beaten and robbed, and also knew he was a "gay man", these Christians wouldn't help him?

Or, you wrote:

But marriage is between man and woman, you say

Yeah historically it was, but now its not a matter of what marriage by tradition was. The law is being decided on by votes and if gays are citizens they have a right too, to be treated equally, just like you.

Are you saying that we as Christians should vote for gay "marriage", to show our love for our "gay neighbor", because "if gays are citizens they have a right too, to be treated equally" just like us?

Here's your bottom line:

Bottom line

Gays are there, if we do not help them, someone will but we would be directly opposing the spirit of love and grace if we didn’t. Regardless of whether you believe homosexuality is a sin or not, remember this, if it is a sin, it is no greater than any other sin, it is certainly not the UNPARDONABLE sin.

How are you suggesting we as Christians should "help them"?

Rick I understand your concerns. Lately I have seen my life as a Christian in Pakistan, heavily discriminated against from the time I went to school and I can not help but see that reflection elsewhere around me. I am not advocating for sin. I am advocating about an open mind, patience, tolerance. Its a battle zone out there. And the more I see the more I realize that we are all inching away.

Also I didn't mean a literal scenario of the parable,I was speaking about the over all attitude towards these issues.

My point is, we have taken such a stand against homosexuality that I think its beyond repair. We have singled this sin out almost as an exception and a whole community practically hates us. Worse you can't talk to these guys because they will tell you up front that you hate them so anything out of your mouth goes in the trash can. Do most people realize how seriously our attitude hurts the message of the gospel? The love of God which was supposed to be a shining example of how much God loves mankind, including gays. Yeah sure we should not say sin is no sin but I believe there is a good way of doing that. Shouting into everyone's faces only worsens the matter. Last week my cousin told me he's gay, he's 20 and he was crying like a kid. Cuz he cant tell anyone, and they are going to get him married to some girl. What do you do with that? Sure I can counsel him, does that change anything? Can I de-gay him or something? I can't. but he was close to commit suicide.

But more so, are there exceptions to what Christ said? Love your neighbour as yourself. If we are to love them, does it mean we need to see what kind of sins they do first? Can Christ save a liar but not a homosexual?

I don't think all Christians think like this. But I know most who would flat out deny any kind of help to a gay person. Especially when it comes to rights and all. But believe me, they will get those rights anyway. A secular society is built like this, my only observation is, why not let them be? I mean what happens if we actually let them be. Making new enemies don't help, especially the propaganda they hear about us, low IQ, close minded, scary, freaky people. Can we show them any different? Can we not at least listen and admit that we enjoy a lot of secular laws but we are now trying to close that liberty for others.

In Pakistan, we have laws, like no Christian can ever become the head of the state, province, country, governor, mayor. No Christian can head the army. When the war of Afghanistan and Iraq was at its peak, I was fired from my job for the sole reason for being a Christian. Can I blame the people around me for having these laws, no because they are right by their own religion and its their religious laws they are enforcing on me. Can't you see its not what you beleive but how the principle is being applied that is wrong. What jurisdiction does Christian moral conduct has on someone who is not Christian, none.

I am not disrespecting anyone's views or efforts, I am not even trying to blame all Christians, just saying we as Christians may need to tone it down a little bit. We have gained nothing.

I guess bottom line is, whatever you hold to, at least show love, respect and understanding, not pointed fingers.

Or, you wrote:
But marriage is between man and woman, you say

Yeah historically it was, but now its not a matter of what marriage by tradition was. The law is being decided on by votes and if gays are citizens they have a right too, to be treated equally, just like you.


Are you saying that we as Christians should vote for gay "marriage", to show our love for our "gay neighbor", because "if gays are citizens they have a right too, to be treated equally" just like us?

yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Here's your bottom line:
Bottom line

Gays are there, if we do not help them, someone will but we would be directly opposing the spirit of love and grace if we didn’t. Regardless of whether you believe homosexuality is a sin or not, remember this, if it is a sin, it is no greater than any other sin, it is certainly not the UNPARDONABLE sin.

How are you suggesting we as Christians should "help them"?

By not discriminating against them socially. That just ends in more hate.

FWIW, I do not have all the answers but the current attitude in general out there isn't doing any wonders either.

I think this post by Neo pretty much sums up my views on the topic. Not just about Christians actions toward gay people, but as far as any one group's actions against another.

In my experience, most Christians I know are high school or college age and are fairly liberal in how they view the world. I really do think that my generation in the US is probably going to have much more liberal views toward homosexuality than our parent's and grandparent's generations did. However, I have been at times appalled by how many Christian leaders have dealt with non-heterosexuality in rather distasteful and cruel ways.

I do understand that many Christians are not the type to openly express ill will toward homosexuality and that many really have no strong feelings on the topic. However, it is disheartening to watch how strongly so many politicians and Christian organizations have taken the issue of gay marriage and made it into a nasty war of words and posturing. I have to agree with Neo when he says that it is absurdly hypocritical to attack the notion that same-sex marriages/unions should be recognized by the government when pretty much no Christian would ever stand up against our government allowing divorce and non-Christian marriages to run rampant. And it's the kind of hypocritical battle that makes me understand why so many gay people harbor such negativity toward Christians as a whole who say nothing in favor of gay people.

And while I'm sure some might disagree with this, there is a legitimate fear and disgust of homosexuality among conservative Christians that has grown well beyond homosexuality just being a sin. When you have liberal states like Michigan passing laws that specifically protect bullies from bullying gay kids in high school based on "religious or moral grounds" and even more groups of Christians who claim that somehow they are being victimized by homosexuality, you know that there is a pretty absurd problem growing among certain groups of Christians out there.

And to be clear, I am not suggesting that Christians should all just drop their beliefs and say that homosexuality is not a sin. I would simply say that there needs to be a serious look at how homosexuality is treated among Christians in the US, and it's time for Christians to realize that many among them have really taken this issue far beyond just saying it is a sin and into the realm of outright hatefulness.

neo-x wrote:Rick I understand your concerns. Lately I have seen my life as a Christian in Pakistan, heavily discriminated against from the time I went to school and I can not help but see that reflection elsewhere around me. I am not advocating for sin. I am advocating about an open mind, patience, tolerance. Its a battle zone out there. And the more I see the more I realize that we are all inching away.

Also I didn't mean a literal scenario of the parable,I was speaking about the over all attitude towards these issues.

My point is, we have taken such a stand against homosexuality that I think its beyond repair. We have singled this sin out almost as an exception and a whole community practically hates us. Worse you can't talk to these guys because they will tell you up front that you hate them so anything out of your mouth goes in the trash can. Do most people realize how seriously our attitude hurts the message of the gospel? The love of God which was supposed to be a shining example of how much God loves mankind, including gays. Yeah sure we should not say sin is no sin but I believe there is a good way of doing that. Shouting into everyone's faces only worsens the matter. Last week my cousin told me he's gay, he's 20 and he was crying like a kid. Cuz he cant tell anyone, and they are going to get him married to some girl. What do you do with that? Sure I can counsel him, does that change anything? Can I de-gay him or something? I can't. but he was close to commit suicide.

But more so, are there exceptions to what Christ said? Love your neighbour as yourself. If we are to love them, does it mean we need to see what kind of sins they do first? Can Christ save a liar but not a homosexual?

I don't think all Christians think like this. But I know most who would flat out deny any kind of help to a gay person. Especially when it comes to rights and all. But believe me, they will get those rights anyway. A secular society is built like this, my only observation is, why not let them be? I mean what happens if we actually let them be. Making new enemies don't help, especially the propaganda they hear about us, low IQ, close minded, scary, freaky people. Can we show them any different? Can we not at least listen and admit that we enjoy a lot of secular laws but we are now trying to close that liberty for others.

In Pakistan, we have laws, like no Christian can ever become the head of the state, province, country, governor, mayor. No Christian can head the army. When the war of Afghanistan and Iraq was at its peak, I was fired from my job for the sole reason for being a Christian. Can I blame the people around me for having these laws, no because they are right by their own religion and its their religious laws they are enforcing on me. Can't you see its not what you beleive but how the principle is being applied that is wrong. What jurisdiction does Christian moral conduct has on someone who is not Christian, none.

I am not disrespecting anyone's views or efforts, I am not even trying to blame all Christians, just saying we as Christians may need to tone it down a little bit. We have gained nothing.

I guess bottom line is, whatever you hold to, at least show love, respect and understanding, not pointed fingers.

Neo, I can't say I disagree with any of this. And, there is a tendency for many people to look at homosexuality as a worse sin. But, it's not only Christians who think this way.

And rick, I'll agree that it isn't just Christians who think less of homosexuals. But, at least in the US, Christians are the only ones who are putting major resources into a campaign against homosexuality in general. And, at least in my experience, I have yet to see a group of Muslims parading in the streets against gay marriage or a Muslim on Fox News denouncing gay marriage as the reason our country is going to hell. Just saying.

RickD wrote:
Or, you wrote:
But marriage is between man and woman, you say

Yeah historically it was, but now its not a matter of what marriage by tradition was. The law is being decided on by votes and if gays are citizens they have a right too, to be treated equally, just like you.


Are you saying that we as Christians should vote for gay "marriage", to show our love for our "gay neighbor", because "if gays are citizens they have a right too, to be treated equally" just like us?

Neo wrote:
yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Neo, I have no problem with people voting their conscience. If Christians decide to vote for a law in a secular society, that allows same sex unions, then that's between them and God. But, I don't think it's right for you or anyone else to say that all Christians should vote that way. We have the liberty(at least in this country) to vote our conscience on issues like this.

RickD wrote:
Here's your bottom line:
Bottom line

Gays are there, if we do not help them, someone will but we would be directly opposing the spirit of love and grace if we didn’t. Regardless of whether you believe homosexuality is a sin or not, remember this, if it is a sin, it is no greater than any other sin, it is certainly not the UNPARDONABLE sin.

How are you suggesting we as Christians should "help them"?

Neo wrote:
By not discriminating against them socially. That just ends in more hate.

That's a pretty broad suggestion. Can you be more specific?

your country has its problems, this issue is poljtical, social and religious, not one thing. i wouldnt say you vote becuae you have to, only that if you feel convinced that they should have this right. personally i do no feel any objection, though i wont speak for you. you may have your reasons i respect that. but i hope you agree that we need to keep our attitude christ like, not pharisees.

Ivellious wrote:And rick, I'll agree that it isn't just Christians who think less of homosexuals. But, at least in the US, Christians are the only ones who are putting major resources into a campaign against homosexuality in general. And, at least in my experience, I have yet to see a group of Muslims parading in the streets against gay marriage or a Muslim on Fox News denouncing gay marriage as the reason our country is going to hell. Just saying.

Muslims are too busy putting their resources into getting the whole world under sharia law, to worry about same sex unions.

Neo-x wrote:
your country has its problems, this issue is poljtical, social and religious, not one thing. i wouldnt say you vote becuae you have to, only that if you feel convinced that they should have this right. personally i do no feel any objection, though i wont speak for you. you may have your reasons i respect that. but i hope you agree that we need to keep our attitude christ like, not pharisees.

I have no problem with putting same sex unions to a vote, and letting the chips fall where they may. That's part of living in a secular society where we can vote on these issues. All people should be shown love, and respect. I agree.

RickD wrote:I have no problem with putting same sex unions to a vote, and letting the chips fall where they may. That's part of living in a secular society where we can vote on these issues. All people should be shown love, and respect. I agree.

I agree totally. I've shared my thoughts on the subject elsewhere, don't remember the thread but I truly and honestly advocate complete severance of church and state. That is where we're heading anyway. Why is polygamy against the law? Why does the law have to restrict unions to 2 consenting adults? Why can't they be 3 or 5 or 10? So long as they are consenting adults let them unionize (lol) and let the lawyers figure out the terms of the union contract. Civil unions become like corporations with specific rights to the corporation itself, the individual members (shareholders) and specific rights to the products (children, assets, healthcare issues and so on). A union can have many structures, a standard model would be with a CEO (head husband or wife) and a hierarchy of responsibilities. It could also be an equal partnership where everything is decided by majority vote. There are by-laws and consequences for braking them and anyone who wishes to exit the union they can submit a resignation letter, depending on their level of responsibility to the union they will either be awarded severance pay or they will have to pay for someone else to fulfill their vacated role. Can anyone tell me why this is not on the agenda of those who advocate same sex unions?

No revolutionary comment here but-

Its one of those things that takes balance. Some Christians are able to do it when dealing with people involved with drugs or alcohol. While its a sin that would be great if they could get out of, God still loves them and we still love them.

Same with homosexuality. I think we've made it MORE than clear that we disapprove of the lifestyle, unfortunately the "love" side hasn't been clear at all. We can only dream that some Christians find a way to separate individuals from the political, unfortunately all of this has become identical with "for or against same-sex marriage".