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Science and Creation

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:32 am
by Indurkar
Science and Creation
Dr.V.S.Indurkar.

Science, appears to be perpetually at loggerheads with Creation by God. In a recent book “The Grand Design”, Stephen Hawking & L. Mlodinow , has given a statement saying that Universe came out of nothing and God is not necessary to explain creation of universe (Pg.227 of this book). He also states “Because there is law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from Nothing --- “. This is a fallacious statement. There is no proof that Stephen Hawking or anybody else has shown that the law of Gravity or the four basic force fields of physics exist in Nothing. Science roots itself on proof. Law of Gravity is there after the matter is present and not before. Hawking is not truthful either to Science or to creation by God .
In order to put Science and Creation in perspective recent developments in Science are briefly enumerated here first :-
There are four basic force fields and associated force carriers :-
1. The gravitational field Long range force The Graviton.
2. The Electromagnetic field long range force The Photon.
3. The Weak field Short range force The W& Z Bosons(interchangeable).
4. The Strong field Short range force The Gluon.
Each of them has associated particle through which it interacts with matter.
Besides in Standard Model of Physics there are 12 fundamental particles.
The Leptons. Electrons, Neutrinos, Muons(2) and Tau(2).
The Quarks . Up, Down, Top, Bottom, Charm and Strange.
These elementary particles combine ( under certain conditions of force fields ) to form bigger
particles ,Called
The Hadrons Protons, Neutrons.
Further, The Hadrons and Leptons combine ( capture)to form Atoms.
For example :- One proton with one electron orbiting it is an Atom of Hydrogen.

Prof. Higgs in 1964 proposed a theory of presence of Higgs field and the associated particle The Higgs Particle – which was` Ephemerally called The God Particle’. Higgs field bestows mass to elementary particles – such as Electrons, Quarks, etc.; and therefore to all the matter

5. The Higgs field Long range force The Higgs Boson

In absence of this for example, at The Big Bang all particles created in the process would have immediately Scattered (fly away ) and interaction with other particles will be impossible.
Higgs Bosons is a massive particle – 125 GeV mass ( Proton’s mass is 1 GeV.),and very short lifetime.
It quickly decays to lots of elementary particles.
Because of this field various constituents of matter were formed immediately after The Big-Bang.
Proof of this theory was achieved at the Large Hadrons Collider (LHD) at CERN July 4. Two bunches of protons accelerated to nearly the velocity of light were collided with each other. It was claimed that 99.9% probability for existence of The Higgs Boson.

To discuss “The Creation” , we should first briefly describe The Big Bang.

Sir Isaac Newton (1687) gave us the steady state universe.` All Stars and Galaxies are in steady state.’

Prof. Hubble an astronomer, ( 1920- 1929), was studying the Galaxies & stars through the 100inch optical telescope (at Mount Wilson Observatory, California ), with an idea to observe contraction of galactic distances. His reasoning was that because of the gravitational force there must be a gravitational Collapse. But what he observed was just the opposite. The stars and galaxies were moving away from each other - an expanding universe.
So working backwards the inference was that it all started with extremely dense , compressed matter /Energy called “The Singularity” Which exploded , giving the expanding Universe. This was the Big Bang. It was also possible by back-calculations to learn when this Big Bang occurred. These figures are 12 to 15 Billion years. So the universe is 12 to 15 billion years old.

Let us now see the account of Creation as per the Holy Bible.

1. St. John 1:1-4 – “ In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the word was God ------“.
Genesis Ch.1:1,2 - In the beginning God Created the heaven and the earth.
The Earth was without form, and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
The Book of Genesis was authored by Moses – all Scripture and Church history adheres - to this fact.
It was compiled by Moses , under inspiration of God, integrating all available records, manuscripts and Oral narratives.
The idea of “what world is” at that time was mainly guided by Aristotle – 4000 B.C. It was an Earth-Centric world with celestial bodies moon, Sun and planets revolving round it. This was the prevalent concept in those times, and this was taken to describe the event of Creation - 4000 B.C. .
At much Later times, Copernicus (1543) proposed – A Heliocentric Universe and that the Earth rotates around Sun and spins on its axis once daily. G.Bruno (1584) extended it, that the Sun and Solar System is not the centre of the universe, but rather a relatively insignificant star system among an infinite multitude of others.
Hence , with much expanded horizon of knowledge now The Earth in Gen Ch.1:2 - actually refers to the Universe .

Ch.1:3 – “And God said “ Let there be light: and there was light”.
The meaning of this is that God created Universe through a cataclysmic event (The Big Bang) releasing of energy and matter of gigantic proportions, - Light is the portion of the Full Electromagnetic Energy spectrum extending from Radio waves, microwaves & Heat , light, Ultraviolet , X-rays and Gamma rays . This is ` The Big Bang ’of Science . Note that “The Singularity” in Science is not yet defined adequately.
Ch.1:3 - God(Word) said “ Let there be Light---- “.
It is clear that God “Created” the universe through a process akin to the Big Bang; and energy & matter , Space & Time, were created. Space and Time started at The Big-Bang.

Ch1:5 - “and…………were the first day”
The Day mentioned here is definitely not what we presume it to be ; a 24 Hrs period of time OR Earths one rotation around its axis. Because the Planet Earth and the Solar system were not Created till that time.
Ch 1:10-13 - God Created the Earth, inclusive in Suns -Solar system on the Fourth Day.
So what the Day means in this context ?
This is a literal translation of the Hebrew word ”Yom”, which can mean a long, indefinite period of time, season OR epoch. Ref . 2Peter 3:8 “--------that one day is with the Lord as a one thousand years and thousand years as one day.”
God created the Universe in six days but each day mentioned therein may actually be an Epoch or a very long period of time. The Day mentioned here is a very long time (Epoch/Era), because the Earth was not created till that time.

Ch1: 6-8 - And God said , Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters.
What is meant by ‘The Firmament’ and ‘The waters’ ?
Genesis was written (compiled) in 4000 B.C ,( describing events 12 to 15 Billion years old ) and
The Force Fields were not conceptualized at that time , and so Symbolism (Analogy) was employed.
The wave nature of force field was symbolized as Water and the matter and energy which spread out at the Big Bang was symbolized as `the Firmament’. The Higgs field bestows mass and inertia to matter; and that matter was symbolized as ‘The Firmament’. { The Hebrew raqia (the “firmament” of the KJV, ASV, RSV, et al.) means an “expanse”.}
The Firmament refers to firmness of matter bestowed by the Higgs field in the expanse .

Ch 1:7 – And God …….divided waters which were under the Firmament form the waters which were above the Firmament: and it was so.
This refers to the separation of The Force Fields , which were created at The Big-Bang.
The gravitational field, The electromagnetic field, The Weak and The Strong fields are The Force Field; as we know now.
Verse 6 and 7 clearly states the range of the force fields.
Short and weak are the short rang force fields active within the matter - under the Firmament.
Gravitational and Electromagnetic are infinitely long range force fields - above the Firmament.
Astonishingly, such meaningful words as ‘The Firmament’ and ‘The waters’ were implied in the Book of Genesis (compiled in 4000 B.C.)
Ch1:8 ----------- were the second Day.

Ch 1:9-13 – The third Day -“third Period of time ”. God created plant-life in this period of time. This means that God created plant-life in extraterrestrial space, perhaps on some galaxies or planet which had sufficiently cooled to support the plant-life, because Planet–Earth, was not created at that time. The Planet - Earth was created on the fourth Day.
We now have some evidence to say that plant-life (at least) has an Extra-terrestrial origin.
The Murchison meteorite which fell in Australia in 1969, revealed significant quantities of organic compounds and amino acids (the basis of life ) which originated in outer space.
{ Isotopic evidence for extraterrestrial non-racemic amino acids in the Murchison meteorite – M.H. Engel and S.A. Macko, Pub. Nature (1997) }
The stable carbon isotope compositions of individual amino acids in Murchison support an extraterrestrial origin of plant-life.

Ch1:16-19 – In the fourth Period of time (Day), God Created The Sun with its Solar-system, including the Earth, and the Moon.
It is now known that the Sun is about 4.5 Billion years old, whereas the Universe is 12-15 Billion years old. Also it is well known now, that Our Sun is a second or third generation star , with presence of heavier elements such as Carbon and Iron on Earth, apart from Hydrogen, Oxygen, water and Air. Sun and Solar system were derived from the Nebular origin . After the Earth was sufficiently cooled life-support system was present, and at least the Plant–life flourished, which has an extraterrestrial origin, and brought on earth by meteorites and asteroids.
It is reckoned that from this period (4th Day) onwards the Earth and water have the normal meaning with Sun and Earth having been created.

Ch1:20-23 – In the fifth period (day) god created creatures of sea –fishes, and birds.

Ch1:24-31 – In the sixth period of time (Day), God created first, the quadruped animals ,
and creeping creatures such as reptiles, snakes and lizards , on Earth.
It is argued by the evolutionists that life-forms on earth Evolved from lower to higher form of life.
But Creation does not exclude evolution. It is inbuilt in Creation. With the Day meaning a very long period of time such as an Era or Epoch, inclusiveness of Evolution within the Creation is built-in.
It is not unlikely that God Created life-forms, and their progress, God implemented through evolutionary process . Thus there is no reason to believe that God was not a guiding force behind evolution. ` The Common descent’ in evolution’, only describes the process used by God.

In the final act of Creation, God created man in his own image and gave them dominion overall other life form on earth.
God created man in his own image; man has been bestowed with unique characteristics such as reasoning and logical inferences. Man could develop tools and machines for himself.
God did not give such ability to any other life-form. Some primates and Otters are known to use available material as tools. But developing tools, reasoning and logical inferences are not found in any other life form. Man is the unique and final act of God.

In evolutionary concept mankind’s split from other primates took place around 100,000 yrs. Ago, whereas “Lucy” the Australopithecus - a genus of extinct earliest bipedal hominids is dated to be 3 million years. The so-called “Missing link” being the Neanderthal has been clearly refuted. This `missing-link’ has not been found . (godand science.org)
See : { Descent of Mankind Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology by Rich Deem -godand science.org}
Evolution fails to contradict “Creation” of man.

To some, question arises that if God Created Universe; “ Who created God “?
This question is irrelevant. By this an Atheist is trying to put God on same pedestal as man-( perhaps just another scientist or discoverer), subject to reasoning and Logic of mankind .The maker cannot be on same pedestal as the one made. God is above man’s pedestal and is superior to man. God is ever present. He is at the beginning , He is present now and will be at the end ( He is `Alfa’ and `Omega’). Therefore, basically this question is wrong.
Genesis Ch1:1 – 2 - “ In the beginning …….. Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters “.
The Spirit of God prevailed then , prevails now and will prevail ever after. And man cannot do any thing about it. Man is Created, God is Creator.

In October of 1996, Pope John Paul II issued a message to the Pontifical Academy of Science
“ That the Evolution does not necessarily conflict with Christianity”. ( also see God and evolution . A.C.Dulles -2007, messege to pontifical Academy of Sciences)

Thus the Bible says that God created Universe and everything in it; and nothing of Science is in variance to the Bible account of Creation .

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:55 am
by RonaldTressler
Very well said, Mr. Indurkar. I am no great person to comment on Science but your observations are a great eye opener to bridge the gap between Science and Religion. It shows your great knowledge both in the fields of Science and Religion. Keep up the good work and keep us enlightened on this subject even more so that the world knows that the Bible is not a piece of Fiction, as some Atheists think.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:51 pm
by Indurkar
Thanks Ronald.Tell others in your Church.
VSI

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:51 am
by KBCid
Apparently you are not aware that science also posits that life arose by the chance interaction of chemicals which they also feel has been substantiated by a number of empirical tests on chemicals,

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:02 am
by Indurkar
KBCid wrote:Apparently you are not aware that science also posits that life arose by the chance interaction of chemicals which they also feel has been substantiated by a number of empirical tests on chemicals,

Reply:
Has anyone been able to show in Labs. the processes that prebiotic-soup giving a monocellular selfreplicating cells / RNA ?
They barely reach Aminoacids and protiens.
The Chance interaction is very negligible to speak-of.
The quest of science essentially is under the paradigm of no external influence or intelligence.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:12 pm
by KBCid
KBCid wrote:Apparently you are not aware that science also posits that life arose by the chance interaction of chemicals which they also feel has been substantiated by a number of empirical tests on chemicals,
Indurkar wrote:Reply:
Has anyone been able to show in Labs. the processes that prebiotic-soup giving a monocellular selfreplicating cells / RNA ?
They barely reach Aminoacids and protiens.
The Chance interaction is very negligible to speak-of.
The quest of science essentially is under the paradigm of no external influence or intelligence.
oh hey, I'm entirely with you on that point. The problem though is that they 'believe' they have sufficient evidence. All they need to 'believe' it is a small chance. That chance could be greater than the sum total of every atom in the universe dividing one but it is enough for them to cling to and 'believe'. Isn't it amazing how far out on a limb some people will go to avoid the obvious.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:22 am
by bippy123
KBCid wrote:
KBCid wrote:Apparently you are not aware that science also posits that life arose by the chance interaction of chemicals which they also feel has been substantiated by a number of empirical tests on chemicals,
Indurkar wrote:Reply:
Has anyone been able to show in Labs. the processes that prebiotic-soup giving a monocellular selfreplicating cells / RNA ?
They barely reach Aminoacids and protiens.
The Chance interaction is very negligible to speak-of.
The quest of science essentially is under the paradigm of no external influence or intelligence.
oh hey, I'm entirely with you on that point. The problem though is that they 'believe' they have sufficient evidence. All they need to 'believe' it is a small chance. That chance could be greater than the sum total of every atom in the universe dividing one but it is enough for them to cling to and 'believe'. Isn't it amazing how far out on a limb some people will go to avoid the obvious.
I believe that's called blind faith lol

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:58 am
by shireesh
Your article is great. The entire perspective has kind of sorted out the ever eternal fight between god and science. After reading your article, I now believe that god created the universe and brought it up to a certain stage from where science took over. So both can co-exist in this frame work. Whereas god did the real creation, science made the little details work to make life as we know it possible.
What made me to get this thought process was the fact that god's day was not the 24 hrs as we know it. Infact day, date, time and calender etc came much later.
Also, god creation included evolution as the time frame being considered us is the much smaller that what is written in the bible.
So we can all be dig out starting point upto a certain point in time but before that was what god has created.
Thanks for giving me this new line of thought.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:16 pm
by Indurkar
" progressive creationism implies that God continuously created new things out of nothing for billions of years."
And God is still creating. Take case of a Birth of a Child ( man , animal or any living entity). Yes, the DNA code sequence is all present there, but who decides and initiates for the time for making limbs, organs; in short making the progeny.
Surely there is no measure (Timewise or any otherway) in the coding.Because if it were so then the variations in basic traits of Brothers and Sisters will not be there. Alternative is identical Twins even in younger and older progenies.
Yes, you might say it is not a new thing, but it is an aspect of creation for sure.

Indurkar
IndurkarNewbie Member Posts: 4Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:40 pm

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:31 am
by Indurkar
KBCid wrote:
KBCid wrote:Apparently you are not aware that science also posits that life arose by the chance interaction of chemicals which they also feel has been substantiated by a number of empirical tests on chemicals,
Indurkar wrote: Reply:
Has anyone been able to show in Labs. the processes that prebiotic-soup giving a monocellular selfreplicating cells / RNA ?
They barely reach Aminoacids and protiens.
The Chance interaction is very negligible to speak-of.
The quest of science essentially is under the paradigm of no external influence or intelligence.
oh hey, I'm entirely with you on that point. The problem though is that they 'believe' they have sufficient evidence. All they need to 'believe' it is a small chance. That chance could be greater than the sum total of every atom in the universe dividing one but it is enough for them to cling to and 'believe'. Isn't it amazing how far out on a limb some people will go to avoid the obvious.
As Sen. Patrick Moynihan wrote:
“You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.” aptly applies to them.
Indurkar wrote:

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:54 pm
by KBCid
Indurkar wrote:" And God is still creating. Take case of a Birth of a Child ( man , animal or any living entity). Yes, the DNA code sequence is all present there, but who decides and initiates for the time for making limbs, organs; in short making the progeny.
Surely there is no measure (Timewise or any otherway) in the coding.Because if it were so then the variations in basic traits of Brothers and Sisters will not be there. Alternative is identical Twins even in younger and older progenies.
Yes, you might say it is not a new thing, but it is an aspect of creation for sure.
Actually God was the first automated mechanism maker. By asserting that he is constantly creating you sell him short on how truely awesome he is.
If you explore our living machine you will find automation everywhere including spatial control. As you continue to exist all the machinery that runs your system requires materials to be shuttled around to precise locations. So if God can form your system to run in an automated fashion why not replication as well? Man is the one who makes things that require constant attention to keep functioning. God made it once and it is still functioning ;) He is the ultimate engineer and he invites us to exlore his handiwork.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:57 pm
by KBCid
Indurkar wrote:As Sen. Patrick Moynihan wrote: “You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.” aptly applies to them.
They believe they define the facts too. (evolution is a fact) Maybe the senator should have a talk with them about that.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:09 am
by BryanH
@Indurkar
In evolutionary concept mankind’s split from other primates took place around 100,000 yrs. Ago, whereas “Lucy” the Australopithecus - a genus of extinct earliest bipedal hominids is dated to be 3 million years. The so-called “Missing link” being the Neanderthal has been clearly refuted. This `missing-link’ has not been found . (godand science.org)
See : { Descent of Mankind Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology by Rich Deem -godand science.org}
Evolution fails to contradict “Creation” of man.
1) The Universe is approximately 14.6 billion years old and planet Earth is about 4.54 billions years old.

2) The facts are that it took God about 10 billions years to create our planet (or our galaxy/our region of space) and basically on what archeological evidence we have (with or without the missing link) human beings similar to what we are today can be traced back to 100,000 years ago.

3) About 4000 years ago God decided to talk to the people he created and gave them the Bible.

4) Even better, 2000 years later he sends a Messiah.

Now questions:
1) Why did it take God 10 billions years to create Earth?
2) Why did it take him billions of years to create the MAN?
3) Why didn't God offer the Bible from day 1?
4) Why are there so many DIFFERENT religions on this planet if there is just 1 creator/god?

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:18 am
by Danieltwotwenty
BryanH wrote:@Indurkar
In evolutionary concept mankind’s split from other primates took place around 100,000 yrs. Ago, whereas “Lucy” the Australopithecus - a genus of extinct earliest bipedal hominids is dated to be 3 million years. The so-called “Missing link” being the Neanderthal has been clearly refuted. This `missing-link’ has not been found . (godand science.org)
See : { Descent of Mankind Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology by Rich Deem -godand science.org}
Evolution fails to contradict “Creation” of man.
1) The Universe is approximately 14.6 billion years old and planet Earth is about 4.54 billions years old.

2) The facts are that it took God about 10 billions years to create our planet (or our galaxy/our region of space) and basically on what archeological evidence we have (with or without the missing link) human beings similar to what we are today can be traced back to 100,000 years ago.

3) About 4000 years ago God decided to talk to the people he created and gave them the Bible.

4) Even better, 2000 years later he sends a Messiah.

Now questions:
1) Why did it take God 10 billions years to create Earth?
2) Why did it take him billions of years to create the MAN?
3) Why didn't God offer the Bible from day 1?
4) Why are there so many DIFFERENT religions on this planet if there is just 1 creator/god?

Why are you limiting God to our concept of time. :shakehead:
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Re: Science and Creation

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:25 am
by BryanH
Why are you limiting God to our concept of time. :shakehead:
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
All I was trying to point out is that MAN is quite a RECENT creation... That's all. And by the way: all the questions are linked with one another.

P.S.: Time is relative.