Evidence for God from Science

Like there some commandments in Leviticus 19
27 ''Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.''
30 ''Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.''
and the one on 1 Timothy 2:12
12 ''...I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man.''

Why do we follow some commandments and not obey others?

God has given us different kinds of commands. There are moral standards that are universal and apply to everyone for all time. Jesus summarized them in two commands: Love God with all you heart and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

There are also commands that he has given only to specific groups or individuals and that are only in effect for a limited time. For example, before Christ died to atone for our sins God commanded the sacrifice of animals for sins. These sacrifices were intended to illustrate what Christ would do and no longer need to be offered.

Many of the commands God gave the Israelites were intended as pictures of what Christ would do and are no longer needed.

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

Israel was a nation and like any other nations had the power to enforce laws and punish lawbreakers. It also had the authority to use military force to protect itself. Many of the commands God gave governed how it was to do these things. The church isn't a nation but is a group of people called out from among all nations. We are subject to the laws of the nations where we reside and don't have the authority to punish wrongdoing so many of these commands don't apply to us.

rodrigoeleuterio wrote:Like there some commandments in Leviticus 19
27 ''Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.''
30 ''Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.''
and the one on 1 Timothy 2:12
12 ''...I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man.''

Why do we follow some commandments and not obey others?

I should point out that, that passage from Paul's letter to Timothy has been contested as "authentic" by a few scholars on the grounds that it seems quite out of character from what Paul teaches in the rest of his letters and how Paul even singles out some women in his letters to the Romans.
ersonal Greetings

16 I commend(A) to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.(B) 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord(C) in a way worthy of his people(D) and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila,(E) my co-workers(F) in Christ Jesus.(G) 4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.(H)

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert(I) to Christ in the province of Asia.(J)

6 Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews(K) who have been in prison with me.(L) They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ(M) before I was.

8 Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.

9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ,(N) and my dear friend Stachys.

10 Greet Apelles, whose fidelity to Christ has stood the test.(O)

Greet those who belong to the household(P) of Aristobulus.

11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.(Q)

Greet those in the household(R) of Narcissus who are in the Lord.

12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

13 Greet Rufus,(S) chosen(T) in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the other brothers and sisters with them.

15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord’s people(U) who are with them.(V)

rodrigoeleuterio wrote:Like there some commandments in Leviticus 19
12 ''...I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man.''
Why do we follow some commandments and not obey others?

Some things in the bible do not at first make sense such as the reference to women you are showing however, there is logic to be found for the apparent change of rule here.
God set his heirarchy of rule to flow from himself to males and then to females which follows the order of creation. There is also some conjecture that women can't teach because they fell first historically but I'm not yet convinced of this point. As I have studied Gods word I have found that in most every case he wants us to recycle in our lives the creation events such as the 1-7 creation week and the sabbath day. This is how man can honor the actions of their maker in honoring his choices by mimicing them in our daily lives.
The rule of no women leading or having authority over men is still quite valid even in our time if the woman is not led by the holy spirit.
You see this is what has changed since the creation. Now men or women can lead 'if' they are vessels of the holy spirit who is ultimately the authority that is directing mankind.
At Christs resurection and return to the father a new thing was able to occur, the holy spirit was then able to be given to believers both male and female and with that spirit existing inside then anyone could teach those without it because it is then neither a male or female teaching by their own authority but rather the authority of the holy spirit that teaches through them. So what looks on the outside as an inconsistency in biblical rules is properly understood as a consistency of rules as the situation changes. The intent of Gods word in fact remains constant. Authority flows from him to all his created beings and the order of his creation is mimiced by those who love him because we want to be holy like him.

here are some reference verses that back this understanding;

John 14:10 ...the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The holy spirit was not just given to males but was given to all who believe. This ultimately means that both male and female could speak with the authority of the holy spirit.

In short, Christians are under the guidance of the HS to decide for themselves which Laws of the OT to obey and the consequences that go with them.
As Paul stated in Romans when dealing with "special days": be each convinced in their own conscience.

PaulSacramento wrote:In short, Christians are under the guidance of the HS to decide for themselves which Laws of the OT to obey and the consequences that go with them.
As Paul stated in Romans when dealing with "special days": be each convinced in their own conscience.

if in fact they have the HS. exactly how does one know or prove that he is directed by the comforter? How many 'christian' sects exist who assert they follow the truth. All cannot be correct. Gods family is one body and one faith as he has stated. So how might one differentiate the holy from the profane? without rules there is no right and wrong, there is no good or evil. A government without rules is anarchy. This is not the message I perceive from my readings.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin...

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

rodrigoeleuterio wrote:Like there some commandments in Leviticus 19
27 ''Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.''
30 ''Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.''
and the one on 1 Timothy 2:12
12 ''...I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man.''

Why do we follow some commandments and not obey others?

We should obey all the commandments given to us by the Holy one. We as Christians can learn the Tanach greatly from our Jewish brothers. As for woman teaching over the man, you will only observe that in the church or synagogue where it mimics the dialog between G-d and man.. By the man having authority over a woman it doesn't mean that the man is head dictator, it means more of a head servant role. Therefore men are more servants to the woman much like how Yeshua was a servant to the church.. And even died for the church Ephesians 5: 22-24

Gman wrote:We should obey all the commandments given to us by the Holy one.

I really like you G.

And I feel an urge to add to your post just a bit if you don't mind. Let me know if you agree.

It is not just the letter of the law or commandment that we should be concerned with. This was one of Christs missions in the new testament. He came to magnify his fathers commandments, He came to provide us with a consideration that the commands had an intent both outward and inward. The old covenant only dealt with the outward man by the letter of the law the new one includes the inward man;

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man...

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Even though some of the commandments were specific to the Jews at the time they were given they still had a reason for God having given them at all. We shall live by 'every' word of the mouth of God because 'every' word has portent beyond the letter. Christ loves his father and the holy spirit Christ has knows what the Father loves and in this way the two act as one. So if Christ thought it of great importance to let us know that his fathers commands had more meaning than was historically given them then we can be confidant that this is also of great importance to God. Gods kingdom has rules... rules of outward conduct... rules of inward conduct to which Peter also had some input on the subject as the Holy spirit gave him utterance;

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

How might one be obedient if there are no rules or laws or commands? and by what do we judge holiness? Shouldn't we take our lead from Christ who is defined as our example?

Our example was a perfect Jew that followed the intent of our father laws......

KBCid wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:In short, Christians are under the guidance of the HS to decide for themselves which Laws of the OT to obey and the consequences that go with them.
As Paul stated in Romans when dealing with "special days": be each convinced in their own conscience.

if in fact they have the HS. exactly how does one know or prove that he is directed by the comforter? How many 'christian' sects exist who assert they follow the truth. All cannot be correct. Gods family is one body and one faith as he has stated. So how might one differentiate the holy from the profane? without rules there is no right and wrong, there is no good or evil. A government without rules is anarchy. This is not the message I perceive from my readings.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin...

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Of course, this is why the bible is so important to Christians.
It gives as guidelines to follow.
Of course that the bible is subject to interpretation is also obvious and that, as you said, we have many denominations because of interpretation tells us that WE must use OUR conscience and follow the grace of the HS.
How do we KNOW we have the HS?
Now that is THE question isn't it?
Certainly the main aspect is believing and proclaiming that Jesus is Lord but there is also this:
The fruits produced by the HS, ie: Love above all.
One certainly can't have the HS and HATE another ( though He can hate the sins of another), One can't preach hate and violence and have the HS.

PaulSacramento wrote:Of course that the bible is subject to interpretation is also obvious and that, as you said, we have many denominations because of interpretation tells us that WE must use OUR conscience and follow the grace of the HS.

This is blatantly wrong. Every time man has intended to apply his interpretation to Gods word it has lost the intent that God wanted. This is why Christ had to correct the Jews of his day concerning the sabbath order and also where the order to honor father and mother had been effectively overridden. Without the instruction of the holy spirit to keep everyone on the same track there is error introduced to the pure intent of Gods laws. Without the measuring stick of the decalogue and royal laws to compare to then anything that man can conceive can be considered acceptable. An example here is where man has already asserted to change the sabbath from the seventh to any day you feel like even though no order has come from God to remove the seventh from being the only one that is holy and blessed. Another would be where man asserts that there are no laws required to be followed since we can't save ourselves by works.

PaulSacramento wrote:How do we KNOW we have the HS? Now that is THE question isn't it?
Certainly the main aspect is believing and proclaiming that Jesus is Lord but there is also this: The fruits produced by the HS, ie: Love above all. One certainly can't have the HS and HATE another ( though He can hate the sins of another), One can't preach hate and violence and have the HS.

Since the HS would always give the same answer for a specific question then that means that many if not most christian sects are not directed by the HS because of the variety of differences across all of them. You feel that just being able to discern hate would be the deal breaker to show when one does not have the HS but I have spoken with and observed a great many different christian sects and they all give the same message of love foundationally so essentially they don't exhibit the telltale sign you infer. This means there must be more signs that allow one to discern true from false. So how did Christ determine what the indicators were?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me

Christ gave us the measuring stick to discern with... it is the same one he used and promoted when he was giving the gospel. In essence he asserted that following the fathers commands as intended (magnified) were necessary along with a belief in him for the remission of sins (rather than the old sacrificial method) and by doing this we can "enter into life".

Remember Christ himself asserted that ther will be 'many' who believe they are doing what he wants them to and will say just that when they meet him, but he will have this message for them;

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How is it that one can believe whole heartedly that they are doing Gods will and yet still be working iniquity? I guess one must understand exactly what iniquity is to make that determination;

iniquity
1. lack of justice or righteousness; wickedness; injustice
2. a wicked act; sin
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/iniquity

iniquity is sin and sin is breaking the commandments of God. If Gods commandments are asserted to not be in effect anymore then how can there be sin? Obviously there is a problem here with cause and effect. Without commandments to obey there is no way to sin and without being able to sin then Christ can't give that message since the people it would apply to would of necessity have to have existed after they could have known him.

KBCid wrote:
This is blatantly wrong. Every time man has intended to apply his interpretation to Gods word it has lost the intent that God wanted. This is why Christ had to correct the Jews of his day concerning the sabbath order and also where the order to honor father and mother had been effectively overridden. Without the instruction of the holy spirit to keep everyone on the same track there is error introduced to the pure intent of Gods laws. Without the measuring stick of the decalogue and royal laws to compare to then anything that man can conceive can be considered acceptable. An example here is where man has already asserted to change the sabbath from the seventh to any day you feel like even though no order has come from God to remove the seventh from being the only one that is holy and blessed. Another would be where man asserts that there are no laws required to be followed since we can't save ourselves by works.

So, you say that the bible being subject to interpretation is "blatantly wrong" because Christ had to correct the Pharisees because they were interpreting the bible teachings incorrectly.
So, it seems that the bible IS subject to interpretation since the Pharisees were doing just that.

KBCid wrote:

Gman wrote:We should obey all the commandments given to us by the Holy one.

I really like you G.

And I feel an urge to add to your post just a bit if you don't mind. Let me know if you agree.

It is not just the letter of the law or commandment that we should be concerned with. This was one of Christs missions in the new testament. He came to magnify his fathers commandments, He came to provide us with a consideration that the commands had an intent both outward and inward. The old covenant only dealt with the outward man by the letter of the law the new one includes the inward man;

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man...

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

I don't see any distinctions between the NT or OT... To me the teachings of Yeshua (Christ) simply amplify the teachings given by the prophets. No where does Yeshua ever destroy the teachings of the Tanach or Old Testament as you would say. So basically the NT is the OT decrypted or decoded.

KBCid wrote:Even though some of the commandments were specific to the Jews at the time they were given they still had a reason for God having given them at all. We shall live by 'every' word of the mouth of God because 'every' word has portent beyond the letter. Christ loves his father and the holy spirit Christ has knows what the Father loves and in this way the two act as one. So if Christ thought it of great importance to let us know that his fathers commands had more meaning than was historically given them then we can be confidant that this is also of great importance to God. Gods kingdom has rules... rules of outward conduct... rules of inward conduct to which Peter also had some input on the subject as the Holy spirit gave him utterance;

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

How might one be obedient if there are no rules or laws or commands? and by what do we judge holiness? Shouldn't we take our lead from Christ who is defined as our example?

Our example was a perfect Jew that followed the intent of our father laws......

Yes.. Our Rabbi Yeshua was that perfect example of how to walk the G-d's commandments. I think when people approach the Law or teachings of Moses in a legalistic manner that is recipe for disaster. That I believe was what Yeshua was addressing, but not the obliteration of the commandments, rather the understanding of how to apply it.

If people think G-d's laws or commandments in the Tanach are curses like some people do here, then they will have to explain to me how I lost 20 pounds by observing the Biblical kosher diets and getting my sanity back by observing the Shabbat. If these are curses then we serve a schizophrenic G-d. imo

PaulSacramento wrote:So, you say that the bible being subject to interpretation is "blatantly wrong" because Christ had to correct the Pharisees because they were interpreting the bible teachings incorrectly.
So, it seems that the bible IS subject to interpretation since the Pharisees were doing just that.

Not quite in the way you are applying it. The pharisees were interpreting how to obey Gods laws. They modified the laws to the point where they lost their intended meaning. Current thinking is to eliminate the laws alltogether so if Christ was a bit perturbed about how the laws were enforced what do you suppose he thinks about dismissing them alltogether? It simply makes no sense for Christ to come and magnify his fathers laws only to do away with them. a proper interpretation will always fall in line with the desire of our unchanging Father. The decalogue was given to help give understanding to the royal law. These were specific things that God felt was important for us to comprehend from the outside prior to Christ showing that they also applied to the inside. We are given milk until we can have meat. The difference now is that we are promised a helper so that we can become as Christ was who was full of the holy spirit which gave him understanding in order to make wise decisions according to what the father wanted. All the while he was alive he honored the decalogue and magnified it in ways which the Jews were not used to. It was a new thing to have to consider that these commands applied to the inward thoughts as well as the outward actions. To consider that they no longer apply at all not only belittles the magnification but also belittles the original intent for why they were given to begin with. If you truely love someone you will honor what they love and honor. The decalogue is a message from God to all humanity through the peculiar nation of israel so that we may understand what he feels is proper and holy conduct both outwardly and inwardly. How can we possibly do away with these things?

Gman wrote:I don't see any distinctions between the NT or OT... To me the teachings of Yeshua (Christ) simply amplify the teachings given by the prophets. No where does Yeshua ever destroy the teachings of the Tanach or Old Testament as you would say. So basically the NT is the OT decrypted or decoded.

Yes.. Our Rabbi Yeshua was that perfect example of how to walk the G-d's commandments. I think when people approach the Law or teachings of Moses in a legalistic manner that is recipe for disaster. That I believe was what Yeshua was addressing, but not the obliteration of the commandments, rather the understanding of how to apply it.

If people think G-d's laws or commandments in the Tanach are curses like some people do here, then they will have to explain to me how I lost 20 pounds by observing the Biblical kosher diets and getting my sanity back by observing the Shabbat. If these are curses then we serve a schizophrenic G-d. imo

There are moments in my life where I look at things and wonder how anyone can make some of the determinations that are made and I am just without understanding. The words I read in the book appear full of meaning, very specific meaning and yet I hear from others a totally opposite understanding. It has been my intent to try and see how others come to their conclusions so that I can see the flow of logic but so far I have not found a contiguous thread being applied from written word to conceptual understanding.
And there are those few and far between like yourself that exude this identical understanding I have and I am renewed in my faith in God and what he means to me. It is like a ringing in my soul when you talk about the various aspects of God that I have been hearing inside for a long time now. I cannot describe why this is so but I can say that it is consistent and persistent kinda like living in a foreign country where you don't understand their language and then out of the crowd you hear someone speaking english.
If your understanding on this subject is wrong then I am wrong in exactly the same way on nearly every point in the subject... it is that close. The strange thing for me is that I had no teacher in biblical studies, I allowed nothing from the outside to influence what I read in the hopes that my maker would allow me to understand what he really means about everything and after nearly 6 years of study I come to compare these things with others here and there you are reciting my understanding without prompt. What are the odds.

KBCid wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:So, you say that the bible being subject to interpretation is "blatantly wrong" because Christ had to correct the Pharisees because they were interpreting the bible teachings incorrectly.
So, it seems that the bible IS subject to interpretation since the Pharisees were doing just that.

Not quite in the way you are applying it. The pharisees were interpreting how to obey Gods laws. They modified the laws to the point where they lost their intended meaning. Current thinking is to eliminate the laws alltogether so if Christ was a bit perturbed about how the laws were enforced what do you suppose he thinks about dismissing them alltogether? It simply makes no sense for Christ to come and magnify his fathers laws only to do away with them. a proper interpretation will always fall in line with the desire of our unchanging Father. The decalogue was given to help give understanding to the royal law. These were specific things that God felt was important for us to comprehend from the outside prior to Christ showing that they also applied to the inside. We are given milk until we can have meat. The difference now is that we are promised a helper so that we can become as Christ was who was full of the holy spirit which gave him understanding in order to make wise decisions according to what the father wanted. All the while he was alive he honored the decalogue and magnified it in ways which the Jews were not used to. It was a new thing to have to consider that these commands applied to the inward thoughts as well as the outward actions. To consider that they no longer apply at all not only belittles the magnification but also belittles the original intent for why they were given to begin with. If you truely love someone you will honor what they love and honor. The decalogue is a message from God to all humanity through the peculiar nation of israel so that we may understand what he feels is proper and holy conduct both outwardly and inwardly. How can we possibly do away with these things?

I wasn't applying it at all, I was simply stating that the bible is and always has been, subject to interpretation.
I stated that, for a christian, what must guide that interpretation (of the bible) is the HS.

But, to your point about the "BIG 10".
I do agree that they have a special place in every Christian denomination and that, outside the sabbath, all are held to be "unbreakable" and "timeless" and even the sabbath is viewed that same, it has only been interpreted different in light of Christ's teaching against the "abuse" of the Sabbath commandment.
I don't know of any christian that doesn't think the 10 commandments do NOT apply to them.

It the other over 600 laws that I think are in question.