Evidence for God from Science

When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:

Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God’s omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God’s family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn’t predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief and not anything to which God has predestined them.

The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of.

When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ’s body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person’s acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

About sixty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn’t this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren’t. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn’t very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and I thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian. If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn’t allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.

Theo,

I agree with some of what you say.
But would you please explain with some detail what you mean by, "really repenting of their sins"?

Also, you say, When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven.
Would you then say that belief is a volitional act, and the responsibility of the one believing? Also, if God foreknows who will believe (And I believe He does) do those who will not believe have the same volitional capacity as those who will?

It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

I guess this gets into a definition of what you mean by belief. Since the Bible says we are saved by FAITH, can you please explain how you are defining the biblical usage of the words belief and faith?

jlay wrote:But would you please explain with some detail what you mean by, "really repenting of their sins"?

I guess the best way to describe it would be to be sorry for your sins because they are wrong rather than simply being sorry for yourself because of the bad consequences you suffered as a result of your sins.

Also, you say, When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven.
Would you then say that belief is a volitional act, and the responsibility of the one believing? Also, if God foreknows who will believe (And I believe He does) do those who will not believe have the same volitional capacity as those who will?

The Bible commands us to believe in God but it also tells us it is the Holy Spirit who draws us to God and gives us the ability to believe. Many theologians have debated the question of how much of salvation is our own choice and how much is God's. I have no idea what the answer is but we don't have to know all the answers before we can be saved.

I guess this gets into a definition of what you mean by belief. Since the Bible says we are saved by FAITH, can you please explain how you are defining the biblical usage of the words belief and faith?

Faith means believing something strongly enough to be willing to act on it as opposed to merely having an intellectual opinion that something is true. Two people might believe that it is possible to jump out of an airplane and reach the ground safely by using a parachute. One of them is willing to actually jump but the other one isn't. The first man has faith in the parachute while the other one doesn't. Saving faith consists of having the same faith in God that the one who jumped had in his parachute.

Theo,
Been wanting to get back, but have been tied up in the d*** morality thread.

I guess the best way to describe it would be to be sorry for your sins because they are wrong rather than simply being sorry for yourself because of the bad consequences you suffered as a result of your sins.

I often hear definitions like this, but is this consistent with how a 1st century Jew would have used the word. Metanoia is one of those words where context is everything. The word itself doesn't have any inherent connection with sin. In fact, the tranlators of the LXX (Greek speaking scholars in the 3rd century BC) chose the word metanoia when it relation to God. Does God need to feel sorrow for sin? No. Now, I would agree that for a person to rightly trust Christ, they would need to trust him for the right reasons. And that would be as a savior, and thus themselves a sinner.

Soteriology is often attempted to be analyzed like you are doing. I think of it like a microwave. The interface on my microwave is simple. Put in a bag of popcorn, and hit the button that says, "popcorn." Wallah! However, the inner workings of the microwave of very complex. I think the interface of salvation is quite simple. Believe. The inner workings are much more nuanced than this.

The Bible commands us to believe in God but it also tells us it is the Holy Spirit who draws us to God and gives us the ability to believe

I would agree that we are designed as self-aware, moral beings and therefore we have the capacity to believe. But I don't think this is what you mean by "ability to believe." It sounds like you are treating faith as if it is a result of regeneration, and thus a commodity, not a volitional act. I would disagree. The Bible doesn't say this. Reformed theologians say this, and support it with proof text. If God "gives" the ability to believe then why is up to the person to do these other things?

Faith means believing something strongly enough to be willing to act on it as opposed to merely having an intellectual opinion that something is true.

And how do you defend this as a correct definition? I know you believe it, but what is your support?

Two people might believe that it is possible to jump out of an airplane and reach the ground safely by using a parachute. One of them is willing to actually jump but the other one isn't. The first man has faith in the parachute while the other one doesn't. Saving faith consists of having the same faith in God that the one who jumped had in his parachute.

This is always a point I am surprised to hear reformed people use. Pardon me for being crude, but, faith then comes down to a matter of how big your balls are? You see sinners are sinners. We are fallen, broken, messed up. But what you are saying is that a sinner must feel the right kind and right amount of sorrow, and then get up enough guts to do something like jump out of an airplane.

Following that analogy, I would never jump out of a perfectly good airplane no matter how certain I was the parachute would function. Now, if the plane is going down, it really doesn't take much if any persuading to get me to put on the chute and jump. You seem to imply that we have to have something like a "brave faith." Of course my example is a cowards faith. The reality is that all people are going down on the plane. Some realize it, some don't. Anyone who realizes the plane is going down, is not going to have to have some sort of "special super man faith". The parachute will save him just as much as the guy who would jump even if he thought there was no danger. You see the key is the object of faith. The parachute. Jesus is our parachute, I agree. And through the Gospel we can help a sinner to comprehend their peril.
When people try to categorize belief, what they are saying without meaning to is this. "I have that REAL faith. I REALLY believe. I mean I really believe." Of course they contrast this against other people. The object becomes themselves and their REAL faith, which oddly contradicts the whole reformed idea of faith being a gift that comes after regeneration.
Too me it just seems Pharisaical.

jlay wrote:

I guess the best way to describe it would be to be sorry for your sins because they are wrong rather than simply being sorry for yourself because of the bad consequences you suffered as a result of your sins.

I often hear definitions like this, but is this consistent with how a 1st century Jew would have used the word. Metanoia is one of those words where context is everything. The word itself doesn't have any inherent connection with sin. In fact, the tranlators of the LXX (Greek speaking scholars in the 3rd century BC) chose the word metanoia when it relation to God. Does God need to feel sorrow for sin? No. Now, I would agree that for a person to rightly trust Christ, they would need to trust him for the right reasons. And that would be as a savior, and thus themselves a sinner.

Like you said, the context is everything. Part of that context is who it is who is repenting. I was speaking of what it means for a human to repent. Obviously it wouldn't apply to God's repentance.

The Bible commands us to believe in God but it also tells us it is the Holy Spirit who draws us to God and gives us the ability to believe

I would agree that we are designed as self-aware, moral beings and therefore we have the capacity to believe. But I don't think this is what you mean by "ability to believe." It sounds like you are treating faith as if it is a result of regeneration, and thus a commodity, not a volitional act. I would disagree. The Bible doesn't say this. Reformed theologians say this, and support it with proof text. If God "gives" the ability to believe then why is up to the person to do these other things?

Our minds are finite so there are times when two things that are true may appear contradictory. The Bible teaches that we are responsible to believe in Christ and it also teaches that we can't do this unless the Holy Spirit enables us to do so. These are probably two different aspects of some greater truth that is beyond our ability to comprehend while we are in this life. Until then I simply accept both of them as being true even though I don't see how it is possible.

Faith means believing something strongly enough to be willing to act on it as opposed to merely having an intellectual opinion that something is true.

And how do you defend this as a correct definition? I know you believe it, but what is your support?

Two people might believe that it is possible to jump out of an airplane and reach the ground safely by using a parachute. One of them is willing to actually jump but the other one isn't. The first man has faith in the parachute while the other one doesn't. Saving faith consists of having the same faith in God that the one who jumped had in his parachute.

This is always a point I am surprised to hear reformed people use. Pardon me for being crude, but, faith then comes down to a matter of how big your balls are? You see sinners are sinners. We are fallen, broken, messed up. But what you are saying is that a sinner must feel the right kind and right amount of sorrow, and then get up enough guts to do something like jump out of an airplane.

True faith will show itself by a willingness to do what God commands even though from a human point of view it might seem foolish.

theophilus wrote:Like you said, the context is everything. Part of that context is who it is who is repenting. I was speaking of what it means for a human to repent. Obviously it wouldn't apply to God's repentance.

theo, this doesn't answer the question. The word metanoia does not have the word 'sin' intrinsic in its definition.
For example. He repented of the notion of letting his son borrow his BMW. The word denotes a change in direction of thinking.
Here is a link to a very well researched study on the word. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf It is a free pdf document.
The Root Meaning The Greek word for repentance (metanoia) is made up of the two
words: “after” (meta) and “mind” (noia). The root meaning of the word “repentance”
then, is “afterthought, change of mind.”

theophilus wrote: The Bible teaches that we are responsible to believe in Christ and it also teaches that we can't do this unless the Holy Spirit enables us to do so.

We would certainly agree on the first part of that statement. On the 2nd, not so much. So, I would ask. Does the HS enable only some, and if so, on what condition? If only some are 'enabled' then how can others be condemned for not doing what they are encapable of doing? For example John 3:18.

True faith will show itself by a willingness to do what God commands even though from a human point of view it might seem foolish.

And how can you be sure you have this kind of faith? Have you ever been threatened with being thrown to the lions if you wouldn't renounce your faith?
Sadly, again, you put the object of faith as performance. That being a person's willingness to do something risky or foolish. Not the finished work of Jesus Christ. So, taking God at His word is not enough? One must be willing to DO something. What about Peter? Are you saying he wasn't really saved when he denied? That he first had to buck up and be a man?
If one has to perform, then how can they ever have security that they are really saved?

jlay wrote:

theophilus wrote:Like you said, the context is everything. Part of that context is who it is who is repenting. I was speaking of what it means for a human to repent. Obviously it wouldn't apply to God's repentance.

theo, this doesn't answer the question. The word metanoia does not have the word 'sin' intrinsic in its definition.
For example. He repented of the notion of letting his son borrow his BMW. The word denotes a change in direction of thinking.
Here is a link to a very well researched study on the word. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf It is a free pdf document.
The Root Meaning The Greek word for repentance (metanoia) is made up of the two
words: “after” (meta) and “mind” (noia). The root meaning of the word “repentance”
then, is “afterthought, change of mind.”

Actually, in modern lingo the best way to translate the Greek word metanoia (repentance) would be:

A life altering change of heart...

This captures the impact of metanoia for the modern mind.

A Change of Mind on the other hand: People can and do change their mind to feel remorseful, but end up continuing doing things as they always did but just feel remorseful about doing it.

Likewise metanoia contains those two shades of meaning... One involves life altering change of heart and mind and the other just a change of mind but not of heart...

The Context of the sentence defines the shade of meaning being implied
-
-
-

jlay wrote:The word metanoia does not have the word 'sin' intrinsic in its definition.

The kind of repentance that is necessary for salvation is repentance of sin.

If one has to perform, then how can they ever have security that they are really saved?

Salvation will bring about a change in the way you live.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:18 ESV)

theophilus wrote:The kind of repentance that is necessary for salvation is repentance of sin.

Well, the bible doesn't say this. I would strongly encourage you to read Cochoris' article on repentance.
The idea of "repentance" of sin as used today, is one of telling the sinner that they need to reform their life, and if they don't they can't be saved, or if they won't they weren't really saved in the first place. This is a VERY popular, and I believe destructive, form of teaching today.

Does Jesus take us as we are, or is there some kind of reform required? If reform, then that certainly defeates salvation by grace through faith alone. And, leaves us in this ambigious mess of how much sorrow is enough, did I confess enough, change enough, etc.

Salvation will bring about a change in the way you live.

Salvation should bring about a change. But you are making an error. In other words, how is ONE saved in the 1st place? By changing the way they live? Whether before or after. Or is salvation by trusting the work of Christ alone? If someone says that one MUST change their life pre or post salvation, then they are putting a condition on salvation. Front door versus back door.
Faith + ___________= salvation.

I used to preach this same message. No fruit equals no root. Of course I thought I had genuine fruit and I was "in." But that wasn't how I was saved, and it wasn't how I stayed saved. When I was saved I trusted that Jesus Christ was my savior. And, as a sinner, I could believe on Him and be made right.
Salvation is about a positional reality. Dead, now alive. Old, now new. Of course a saved person still walks around in the exact same old, dead body. Same memories and same scars.

You quote James. Well the problem in prooftexting James in this manner is that it creates a condtradiction with other scripture.
James, in the greater context is speaking of practical salvation, not positional. Who is James speaking to? Well, I believe he says breathren and brothers over 15 times in this short letter. He is speaking to people (Jews specifically) who are ALREADY what? SAVED. So, if people who are saved just naturally 'change,' then why is so much of the NT a 'how to' on Christian living? Not to mention that much of it (Paul's letters specifically) is reproof for getting it WRONG.

Theo,
I can't help but think you overlooked responding to some other things I directed to you. I think Jesus makes a very wise statement when He says, For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt. 7:1-2)
If you want to say that salvation is measured on how you perform, or how much the way you live is changed, then you will be judged by that measure. I know that I could never stand before God and claim that I changed enough, prayed enough, grieved enough, gave enough, etc, that I somehow contributed to my salvation.
I believe God has saved us just like we are. Can God change us? You bet. Since we are positionally 100% saved, sanctified, holy and righteous, we can actualize all our potential. But if we don't beleive this, then instead we may substitute man made religious activity.

B. W. wrote:The Context of the sentence defines the shade of meaning being implied

Examples? I am whole heartedly with you on context. However, what exactly do you mean by "life altering?" When JTB preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand," what is he saying? Well, is God getting ready to do a new thing? Yes. Is it going to be radically different? Yes. They need to have their minds ready to recieve this new move of God. They need to PREPARE the way.

Likewise metanoia contains those two shades of meaning... One involves life altering change of heart and mind and the other just a change of mind but not of heart...

When we say someone has had a "change of heart" today, what do we mean. We mean, they changed their mind. The use of the word Kardia in the Greek follows much the same. Now granted the "change of heart" can come through sorrow, conviction, etc. But it is NOT those things. That is why I think Cochoris' article is a must read. Some say repentance means to "turn from your sin," or "feel sorrow for sin." There are flat contradictory definitions being used today. So, we need to examine and see who has defined the term incorrectly.

To me, changed started/happened the moment that I proclaimed in voice and heart and spirit that Jesus Christ was my lord and saviour and gave myself to Him, to Our Father and accepted the HS.
It was like a "rushing" of waves, it "swarmed" over me and I felt the pure power of His love AND I felt the consequences of my Sin, all my sin.
And then began the process of repentance, of accepting ALL that I had done, accepting that I KNEW it ALL to be wrong and baring that brunt and force and pain of that realization.
None of that could have been possible without FIRST accepting Jesus and admitting to myself : I CAN'T do this alone, I NEED Jesus.

PaulSacramento wrote:And then began the process of repentance, of accepting ALL that I had done, accepting that I KNEW it ALL to be wrong and baring that brunt and force and pain of that realization.

I think Paul better describes an example.
He thought one way about himself. He is enlightened and comes to realize he was wrong. He has a change of heart.

jlay wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:And then began the process of repentance, of accepting ALL that I had done, accepting that I KNEW it ALL to be wrong and baring that brunt and force and pain of that realization.

I think Paul better describes an example.
He thought one way about himself. He is enlightened and comes to realize he was wrong. He has a change of heart.

I think Paul only HINTS as what he went through at certain times.
He suffered GREATLY to make amends for all the wrongs he had done BUT I think that all those physical torments PALED in comparison to the spiritual pain he felt KNOWING the full extent of what he had done.

I meant YOU, Paul, as directed to Theo.

Listen everybody, this really isn't that difficult to understand. Jesus said, "truly, truly, I say unto you, he that believes has everlasting life". PERIOD! Nothing else.
If you believe (rely upon or trust in) in Christ, you have everlasting life. This is not that difficult to understand. Turning from sin doesn't save us. Surrendering our
life to God doesn't save us. Making Jesus, Lord, doesn't save us (He's Lord whether we make Him or not). If we simply believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, that He died for
our sins, was buried and rose again, God gives us eternal life. Let's not make more complicated that it is.

Jesus put it very well, "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".