Evidence for God from Science

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... OE#t=6798s


I'm not sure what your views are of William Craig, he seems to be well revered by most Christians.

In this video he talks about the justification for God or God's will killing children.

I would like to hear your input on the following:

William Craig states: "Our mortal duties are constituted by God's commands".

Because God commands it, that makes it ok? How many other religions have sacrificed humans or caused terror because of God's command?
Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son, floods, massacres of tribes. These are good because God commanded it?

William justifies if children die because of God's will, it means they will receive divine salvation.

Now, if there is a Heaven and you get a free pass to go there for being massacred as a child. Shouldn't all children be massacred to go to this divine place? Why do some children get the "convenience/blessing" of being killed by God's will while other's have to possibly suffer hell by growing up and sinning?

Many other religions use God's will, his "divine command of morality" to kill others or themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

God, the creator of the entire Universe couldn't figure out a better way? He created billions of gigantic galaxies, gigantic stars with nuclear fusion that make heavy elements that we are not able to be duplicated with our Science. But he has to kill people with floods, stones, provoking human sacrifice?


What do you think and why?

Thanks,
Jordan

IF there is a GOD, then that GOD must by virtue of being GOD, be all-knowing and by virtue of being God, all-good.
A command that may SEEM immoral from GOD, can't be viewed as such IF He is GOD.
EX:
God commands that a child is killed in 1895, the child's name is Hitler.
No one knows WHY.

Then there is also the notion that death for God is NOT like death for us, IF there is a God and He is the creator of ALL life, then ALL life is His BUT more importantly, ALL life is NOT finite and death is simply a change in state of living energy.

PaulSacramento wrote:IF there is a GOD, then that GOD must by virtue of being GOD, be all-knowing and by virtue of being God, all-good.
A command that may SEEM immoral from GOD, can't be viewed as such IF He is GOD.
EX:
God commands that a child is killed in 1895, the child's name is Hitler.
No one knows WHY.

Well, that's a bad example, Hitler existed. I'm sure there were many good kids that didn't survive God's wrath.
A command may seem immoral? We have the ten commandments don't we? If the ten commandments are inspired by the divine, the divine must have a sense of Moral principles? He simply doesn't lead by example.

PaulSacramento wrote: Then there is also the notion that death for God is NOT like death for us, IF there is a God and He is the creator of ALL life, then ALL life is His BUT more importantly, ALL life is NOT finite and death is simply a change in state of living energy.

Well, I doubt God has ever died, he has always existed, created from nothing. Unlike the Universe, Right?

snorider wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IF there is a GOD, then that GOD must by virtue of being GOD, be all-knowing and by virtue of being God, all-good.
A command that may SEEM immoral from GOD, can't be viewed as such IF He is GOD.
EX:
God commands that a child is killed in 1895, the child's name is Hitler.
No one knows WHY.

Well, that's a bad example, Hitler existed. I'm sure there were many good kids that didn't survive God's wrath.
A command may seem immoral? We have the ten commandments don't we? If the ten commandments are inspired by the divine, the divine must have a sense of Moral principles? He simply doesn't lead by example.

PaulSacramento wrote: Then there is also the notion that death for God is NOT like death for us, IF there is a God and He is the creator of ALL life, then ALL life is His BUT more importantly, ALL life is NOT finite and death is simply a change in state of living energy.

Well, I doubt God has ever died, he has always existed, created from nothing. Unlike the Universe, Right?

Hitler's existence is irrelevant. The point is, IF god is GOD then He is omniscient and KNOW who should or should not die and why.
Our view of the ultimate act ( death) as immoral is irelevent since we don't have "all the info".
Very few people would view the killing of 1 murderous person to save millions as, "immoral", right?

As for God NOT leading by example, on what do you base that view?
If God is GOD then every action is JUST and as such moral.

snorider wrote:Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son, floods, massacres of tribes. These are good because God commanded it?

Yes. God didn't allow Abraham to actually carry out the sacrifice; he was just testing him. And a God who is good must punish evil or he would cease to be good.

Well, I doubt God has ever died,

Actually God has died. Jesus Christ was God as well as man. He was the only human who has never sinned and therefore didn't deserve to die. He allowed himself to be killed so he could become a sacrifice to pay for our sins. Because he did this God can forgive us while still exercising his justice which requires that all sin be punished. The fact that Jesus rose from the dead shows that his sacrifice was enough to atone for our sins.

PaulSacramento wrote:

snorider wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IF there is a GOD, then that GOD must by virtue of being GOD, be all-knowing and by virtue of being God, all-good.
A command that may SEEM immoral from GOD, can't be viewed as such IF He is GOD.
EX:
God commands that a child is killed in 1895, the child's name is Hitler.
No one knows WHY.

Well, that's a bad example, Hitler existed. I'm sure there were many good kids that didn't survive God's wrath.
A command may seem immoral? We have the ten commandments don't we? If the ten commandments are inspired by the divine, the divine must have a sense of Moral principles? He simply doesn't lead by example.

PaulSacramento wrote: Then there is also the notion that death for God is NOT like death for us, IF there is a God and He is the creator of ALL life, then ALL life is His BUT more importantly, ALL life is NOT finite and death is simply a change in state of living energy.

Well, I doubt God has ever died, he has always existed, created from nothing. Unlike the Universe, Right?

Hitler's existence is irrelevant. The point is, IF god is GOD then He is omniscient and KNOW who should or should not die and why.
Our view of the ultimate act ( death) as immoral is irelevent since we don't have "all the info".
Very few people would view the killing of 1 murderous person to save millions as, "immoral", right?

As for God NOT leading by example, on what do you base that view?
If God is GOD then every action is JUST and as such moral.

PaulSacramento wrote:If God is GOD then every action is JUST and as such moral

Exactly why 9/11 happened, the book is just a little different.

Well, you brought Hitler up as an example, God killing innocent children that are a part of an "evil tribe" but leaving a madman alive to kill millions? I think that's something worth thinking about.

Christianity isn't the only religion that think's every act of God is JUST. Now can you see the danger of religion?
Christian's that interpret the Bible "literally" can feel that their actions were JUST. They were reading the inspired word of God. They just didn't go to bible school to study context.

Now, I'm sure we would both agree that killing someone for saying "God Damn" is ridiculous. However, the power of religion, a simple piece of text, even out of context can give a person an excuse to kill and feel righteous doing so:

Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.


Some religions act on it more than others, as we know. 9/11 for example but Christianity is not exempt. You can type in Google: God told me to kill my kids, many speak specific verses like the ones above.

Jordan

Christianity isn't the only religion that think's every act of God is JUST. Now can you see the danger of religion?

Any world view can be dangerous, atheism has killed millions of people, does that mean atheism is bad? nope it means that humans are bad.

Now, I'm sure we would both agree that killing someone for saying "God Damn" is ridiculous. However, the power of religion, a simple piece of text, even out of context can give a person an excuse to kill and feel righteous doing so:

Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.


Some religions act on it more than others, as we know. 9/11 for example but Christianity is not exempt. You can type in Google: God told me to kill my kids, many speak specific verses like the ones above.

Put in it's proper context these laws are not written for us, they were written for an ancient cuture who were pretty backwards and were surrounded by nations who were pretty depraved, the laws were harsh but so was the enviromemt they lived in.

The only thing 9/11 and other incidents prove is that man is corrupt and sinful, as I stated earlier just because someone does somthing bad in the name of something else it does not make that something bad.

Dan

snorider wrote: Exactly why 9/11 happened, the book is just a little different.

Well, you brought Hitler up as an example, God killing innocent children that are a part of an "evil tribe" but leaving a madman alive to kill millions? I think that's something worth thinking about.

Christianity isn't the only religion that think's every act of God is JUST. Now can you see the danger of religion?
Christian's that interpret the Bible "literally" can feel that their actions were JUST. They were reading the inspired word of God. They just didn't go to bible school to study context.

Now, I'm sure we would both agree that killing someone for saying "God Damn" is ridiculous. However, the power of religion, a simple piece of text, even out of context can give a person an excuse to kill and feel righteous doing so:

Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.


Some religions act on it more than others, as we know. 9/11 for example but Christianity is not exempt. You can type in Google: God told me to kill my kids, many speak specific verses like the ones above.

Jordan

RE: God not killing Hitler: Damned if He does ( Caananites) damned if He doesn't, right?
God last "act" of "divine intervention" was Christ, the rest is up to us from then on.
When people commit atrocities in "god's name", they will have to answer for it, to God AND to those they attempt to commit those atrocities on.
God doesn't commit those atrocities, people do it in "in his name", so who is to counter that? God?, no, WE are to counter that in HIS Name.
9/11 was horrific, as were all the acts done before and after and God was NOT involved in ANY of them.

RE: Blasphemy
To blasphemy God is to blasphemy the HS, to accept God AND THEN to do horrific things in God's name.
Perhaps those people DO deserve to be put to death...

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Any world view can be dangerous, atheism has killed millions of people, does that mean atheism is bad? nope it means that humans are bad.

A person that does not believe in God kills for their own personal agenda. God gives moral permission to kill or perform an act without feeling guilty because of Divine Command Morality.

Violence is a product of ignorance.

Now, I'm sure we would both agree that killing someone for saying "God Damn" is ridiculous. However, the power of religion, a simple piece of text, even out of context can give a person an excuse to kill and feel righteous doing so:

Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.


Some religions act on it more than others, as we know. 9/11 for example but Christianity is not exempt. You can type in Google: God told me to kill my kids, many speak specific verses like the ones above.

Put in it's proper context these laws are not written for us, they were written for an ancient cuture who were pretty backwards and were surrounded by nations who were pretty depraved, the laws were harsh but so was the enviromemt they lived in.

Danieltwotwenty wrote: The only thing 9/11 and other incidents prove is that man is corrupt and sinful, as I stated earlier just because someone does somthing bad in the name of something else it does not make that something bad.

Man can be cruel, however, if a man knows that their life on this Earth is short, precious, and without an afterlife. Man may think twice about flying themselves into buildings with the justification of Divine Command Morality.

PaulSacramento wrote:RE: God not killing Hitler: Damned if He does ( Caananites) damned if He doesn't, right?
God last "act" of "divine intervention" was Christ, the rest is up to us from then on.
When people commit atrocities in "god's name", they will have to answer for it, to God AND to those they attempt to commit those atrocities on.
God doesn't commit those atrocities, people do it in "in his name", so who is to counter that? God?, no, WE are to counter that in HIS Name.

God didn't commit those atrocities? But he has committed atrocities throughout the Bible, is it not morally JUST because he did it?

PaulSacramento wrote: 9/11 was horrific, as were all the acts done before and after and God was NOT involved in ANY of them.

RE: Blasphemy
To blasphemy God is to blasphemy the HS, to accept God AND THEN to do horrific things in God's name.
Perhaps those people DO deserve to be put to death...

9/11:
Saying God was not involved is not true, the action was justified by Divine Command Morality from their perspective.
Who are you to say it wasn't divinely inspired? In their eyes it was, because it was successful. Why didn't God stop the planes or use his Divine power to prevent it? The lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.
Not only were they successful, but there was a communications breakdown between the Christian President and Washington while he was in flight on Airforce one. The Phones stopped working, their is an entire documentary about the 9/11 report. If you were an Islamic Extremist, wouldn't you find this Divine?

Millions of people die everyday from horrible diseases, those deaths are forgotten, but when one lives, it's contributed to God. Just recently we can saw this:
http://www.onenewspage.co.uk/n/Front+Pa ... e-that.htm
If we contribute the good to God, shouldn't we also contribute the bad?
We do not contribute it to Science even though he went through 29 surgeries, we contribute it to Religion. A saint was named because of it.


Most Christian's are for preserving life, example: abortions, it's ok for us to end a human life? Isn't that a little hypocritical? What makes us the judge?
There are cases where innocents have been executed, with technological advances we learned they were innocent.

Google: Innocents executed

A food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g

I'm sorry sno I feel I am wasting my time with you, if your purpose here is just to grind your axe then maybe this isn't the place for you. I am not going to keep repeating myself over and over in different threads.

I have a question for you, do you think the truth of the Bible could be real and that your understanding could be faulty?
Are you here as a genuine seeker who is interested in Christianity or are you here to discredit and argue?

I am not trying to be nasty or dismissive, I really hope you do understand one day how much God loves you.

Dan

snorider wrote:
God didn't commit those atrocities? But he has committed atrocities throughout the Bible, is it not morally JUST because he did it?

9/11:
Saying God was not involved is not true, the action was justified by Divine Command Morality from their perspective.
Who are you to say it wasn't divinely inspired? In their eyes it was, because it was successful. Why didn't God stop the planes or use his Divine power to prevent it? The lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.
Not only were they successful, but there was a communications breakdown between the Christian President and Washington while he was in flight on Airforce one. The Phones stopped working, their is an entire documentary about the 9/11 report. If you were an Islamic Extremist, wouldn't you find this Divine?

Millions of people die everyday from horrible diseases, those deaths are forgotten, but when one lives, it's contributed to God. Just recently we can saw this:
http://www.onenewspage.co.uk/n/Front+Pa ... e-that.htm
If we contribute the good to God, shouldn't we also contribute the bad?
We do not contribute it to Science even though he went through 29 surgeries, we contribute it to Religion. A saint was named because of it.


Most Christian's are for preserving life, example: abortions, it's ok for us to end a human life? Isn't that a little hypocritical? What makes us the judge?
There are cases where innocents have been executed, with technological advances we learned they were innocent.

Google: Innocents executed

A food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g

The only "attrocities" commited directly by God were:
Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues of Egypt.
Taken into their context and the reasons given, IF God is a Just God, then those acts were warranted.

There was no "divine command" for 9/11, you won't find any muslim say there was a divine command from Allah to fly planes into a building.
And if the "validity" of the act is confirmed by it's "success" then what can be said about the retribution for the act?
If 3000 dead means "Allah approved" then does all that happened after mean "God approved more" ?

Back to the subject of the thread:
The clear cut issue is simple and that is: IF God is GOD then YES, any command is moral, regardless of how we humans view it.
Whether YOU like the answer or not is irrelevant.
You just need to understand what this means: If God is GOD.

PaulSacramento wrote:

snorider wrote:
God didn't commit those atrocities? But he has committed atrocities throughout the Bible, is it not morally JUST because he did it?

9/11:
Saying God was not involved is not true, the action was justified by Divine Command Morality from their perspective.
Who are you to say it wasn't divinely inspired? In their eyes it was, because it was successful. Why didn't God stop the planes or use his Divine power to prevent it? The lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.
Not only were they successful, but there was a communications breakdown between the Christian President and Washington while he was in flight on Airforce one. The Phones stopped working, their is an entire documentary about the 9/11 report. If you were an Islamic Extremist, wouldn't you find this Divine?

Millions of people die everyday from horrible diseases, those deaths are forgotten, but when one lives, it's contributed to God. Just recently we can saw this:
http://www.onenewspage.co.uk/n/Front+Pa ... e-that.htm
If we contribute the good to God, shouldn't we also contribute the bad?
We do not contribute it to Science even though he went through 29 surgeries, we contribute it to Religion. A saint was named because of it.


Most Christian's are for preserving life, example: abortions, it's ok for us to end a human life? Isn't that a little hypocritical? What makes us the judge?
There are cases where innocents have been executed, with technological advances we learned they were innocent.

Google: Innocents executed

A food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g

The only "attrocities" commited directly by God were:
Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues of Egypt.
Taken into their context and the reasons given, IF God is a Just God, then those acts were warranted.

There was no "divine command" for 9/11, you won't find any muslim say there was a divine command from Allah to fly planes into a building.
And if the "validity" of the act is confirmed by it's "success" then what can be said about the retribution for the act?
If 3000 dead means "Allah approved" then does all that happened after mean "God approved more" ?

Back to the subject of the thread:
The clear cut issue is simple and that is: IF God is GOD then YES, any command is moral, regardless of how we humans view it.
Whether YOU like the answer or not is irrelevant.
You just need to understand what this means: If God is GOD.

As you said, if God is GOD then Yes, any command is moral. Just like any other faith believes, that's why planes are flown into buildings, abortion clinics are bombed, why the pope tells people not to use condoms killing thousands if not millions. In the name of God...

snorider wrote:if God is GOD then Yes, any command is moral. Just like any other faith believes, that's why planes are flown into buildings, abortion clinics are bombed, why the pope tells people not to use condoms killing thousands if not millions. In the name of God...

You really sound like MAGSolo and seem to have his deductive abilities.

In any event, planes are flown into buildings, abortion clinics are bombed and people blame the Pope for all kinds of things because it is human nature to be nasty and vindictive. If all of us really want someone to blame, we must look into a mirror.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

snorider wrote:if God is GOD then Yes, any command is moral. Just like any other faith believes, that's why planes are flown into buildings, abortion clinics are bombed, why the pope tells people not to use condoms killing thousands if not millions. In the name of God...

You really sound like MAGSolo and seem to have his deductive abilities.

In any event, planes are flown into buildings, abortion clinics are bombed and people blame the Pope for all kinds of things because it is human nature to be nasty and vindictive. If all of us really want someone to blame, we must look into a mirror.

FL

Ah, we are going with human nature not religion driven.. Interesting..

PaulSacramento wrote: The only "attrocities" commited directly by God were:
Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues of Egypt.
Taken into their context and the reasons given, IF God is a Just God, then those acts were warranted.

I haven't responded, I can't describe how much the following makes me sick to my stomach, I still can't respond... If this is the thinking processes it shows how dangerous religion is.