Evidence for God from Science

In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus and describes how they lived in this life and what their circumstances were after they died.

There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.

The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out,”‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.”

But Abraham said, “Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.”

And he said, “Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.”

But Abraham said, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.”

And he said, “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.”

He said to him, “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”

This story follows a group of parables and there is much disagreement as to whether this in another parable or a record of something that actually happened.

To answer this question we need to look at exactly what a parable is. Luke 15:3-7 records a story by Jesus which is clearly identified as a parable.

So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Let’s look at exactly what Jesus did here. He told a story about a shepherd and a lost sheep. This was something the people were familiar with because they lived in a culture in which being a shepherd was a common occupation. Then he showed how this everyday event which they could see was like a heavenly event which they couldn’t see directly; the rejoicing by the shepherd was like the rejoicing that takes place in heaven when a sinner repents. A parable illustrates a spiritual truth by comparing it with something with which the listeners were familiar.

But does the story of Lazarus and the rich man follow this pattern? It begins by describing a rich man and a beggar who was at his gate seeking help. This was no doubt the sort of thing his listeners had seen. But Jesus doesn’t make any comparison between this situation and something in heaven. Instead he continues the story by telling how the two men died and what their circumstances were after death. In addition, two of the people in the parable, Lazarus and Abraham, are named, and we know for certain that Abraham was a real person. These departures from the usual pattern of parables show that this wasn’t a parable but an account of something that really happened.

This story is the plainest description found in the Bible of what happens after death. We know that at death the body completely ceases to function but we find here that the same thing isn’t true of the soul. It is separated from the body but still continues to function in the same way it did while still in the body.

In the Old Testament there are many references to a place called Sheol which is the place everyone went after death. Both the good and the bad went there. This is the same place as Hades, which is where the rich man ended up. Since he was able to see and speak to Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, but in a different part. Abraham said there was a chasm between the place they were and the place the rich man was, so there was a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous even though they were in the same place.

The unsaved still go to Hades immediately after they die but that is no longer true of the saved. The death of Jesus has brought about a change in what happens to them. Jesus told the thief who repented that he would be in Paradise with him that same day. We learn from 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 that Paradise is in the third heaven.

I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says,

Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This shows that between his death and resurrection Jesus descended into Hades and took out all the righteous dead and took them to Paradise. Now whenever a believer dies his soul goes immediately to be with Jesus.

Even the unsaved won’t stay in Hades forever. Revelation 20 contains a description of the final judgment, when all those who are lost will be punished for eternity by being thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15 says,

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Some believe it to be a parable, others believe it to be a "prophetic telling" of what was to happen to Jesus's good friend Lazarus and others think of it as what did happen when Lazarus died.
Some traditions hold that Lazarus was wealthy at one point, but he got leprosy from his dad Simon, His sisters Mary and Martha lived with him and cared for him after his father died and,m according to some, Mary "prostituted" herself to be able to get money to care for Lazarus.

Hello Theophilus.

Some claim it is not a parable. Others claim it is, including Dr. William Lane Craig. I happen to believe it is.

I am an Annihilationist so my view on what this parable is teaching is also complemented by my views on eschatology to gain understanding. I believe it is very important to point out who is present in the audience listening to Jesus tell this parable in order to gain insight as to what Jesus is saying. I agree with you, that in Luke 15, Jesus begins teaching a series of parables but in ch 16 Scripture claims:

Luke 16:14 (KJV) "And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him."

So shortly after the Pharisees derided Him, Christ begins a parable about of all things, a rich man, in fact, a covetous rich man and I believe He does this to evidently teach the Pharisees a truth.

The rich man ended up in "Hell" after he died, which as you pointed out is the anglicization of the Greek word Hades or the place of the dead. The rich man wasn't only physically dead; he was spiritually dead. I also happen to believe we have two bodies, the physical and the spiritual. The rich man's physical body died and his spiritual body went to the other side of Paradise in Heaven, immediately after death. (I actually believe everyone upon death goes to the judgment seat of Christ and Christ decides which side of Paradise a soul resides on until his ultimate return hear to Earth but that is another story). The rich man still had a soul, essentially the brain of the spiritual body. The rich man could certainly feel, see, hear and rationalize without the need of a physical brain.

I happen to believe that the rich man is symbolic of the tribe of Judah, that is the Jews. Not Judah as a historical individual. Lazarus is symbolic of spiritually poor Gentiles or non Jews. It is interesting that Christ used the name Lazarus, for the designation of the poor beggar which is again an anglicization of the Hebrew name, Eleazer. The rich man's name is not given. I believe there is more here than just a simple story of a rich and poor man separated by a gulf in Paradise especially since Christ made it clear He came to preach the Kingdom of God. Paul the apostle speaks about the milk and meat of the Word and this parable contains a lot of meat! At the same time, I don't want to over-analyze the parable.

The rich man was dressed in purple, purple was worn by Kings (Judges 8:26). Judah has always been symboliclly representative of the king line, where Levi for example was symbolic of the priest line.

The rich man was also dressed in fine linen. The Rich man didn't just dress in "Purple," but "Purple and Cambric." He wore both. Cambric or Fine Linen is symbolic of the clothing that the priests wore (Ex. 28:5, 25:4).

Our Lord would not have told us that the Rich man wore these two specific types of garments except that they have great symbolic value in identifying who this man personifies.

The rich man referred to Abraham when he was speaking to him across the gulf as "Father Abraham". Judah could therefore legitimately call Abraham, "Father." Abraham was Judah's Great Grandfather. Abraham could legitimately call the Rich man, "Son" , which he does. Judah was Abraham's Great Grandchild.

The Kingdom of Judah did have "Moses and the Prophets." They were the protectors and scribes of those very documents till the time of our Lord's ministry.

The rich man had five brothers. What other Biblical character has 5 brothers?

At first glance, you might think Judah can't be this "Rich man." Didn't Judah have eleven brothers? Yes and No. True, there were twelve sons of Israel, one of which was Judah, but not all by the same mother.
Judah's Mother, Leah, had
1. Reuben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Issachar
5. Zebulun
6. Judah makes six (Gen. 29:31-35, 30:18-19).

So who had five brothers? Judah.

The context I am speaking of regarding this parable is the tribe of Judah's rejection of Jesus as the prophesied Christ.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Evidently if the rich man had of listened to Moses and the prophets he would not be where he ended up and if his brothers didn't listen, the same fate would await them. If the tribe of Judah truly read Moses and the prophets, then they would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus really is the Christ because the Torah which contains Moses and the prophets is their holy book which they have access to. The first converts to our faith were of the tribe of Judah. Many of our brother Judah converted to Christianity in the first century as did and many others over the centuries. By the majority of the tribe of Judah's rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, they are essentially separated by a gulf and as a result of that rejection have and are burning in the fires of persecution and of anti-Semitism.

The tribe of Judah did indeed corrupt themselves. In the person of Judah they see the result of their ways. Notice that the Rich man never said one word in his own defense. He knew exactly what kind of a person (people) he was. It is true that Judah were given so much by God, but showed ever so little appreciation to God! As Jesus said, "Whoever does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father who sent Him." They have suffered like few races of people have ever suffered.

Now granted some are deliberately blinded to the truth but as we see in John's Gospel:

John 11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
John 11:46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

Even at that time there was division within Judah caused by Jesus Himself. Some were convinced when they saw Jesus raise Lazarus. Some were not. The significance of raising Lazarus is representative of the resurrection of the Levitical priesthood.

But Abraham claims unless they hear Moses and the prophets, they will never be convinced even if one rose from the dead, thus Judah will remain separated from the true resurrected Levitical priesthood church (Lazarus), not have a real relationship with the Living God because they do not know the way (Christ is the way) and be separated by a gulf of ignorance and as a result will suffer.

theophilus wrote:We learn from 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 that Paradise is in the third heaven.

I disagree with this. I am an OEC ruin/reconstruction creationist so I interpret this as Paul was taken into the future to the THIRD heaven and earth age as described in 2Pet 3:13; the new heaven and earth, and he knew everything there. But that's a discussion for another thread.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Hope my response helped you.

Thanks for posting about this most interesting parable.

Katabole wrote:I happen to believe that the rich man is symbolic of the tribe of Judah, that is the Jews. Not Judah as a historical individual. Lazarus is symbolic of spiritually poor Gentiles or non Jews.

The beauty of the Allegorical Method of biblical interpretation is its plasticity of meaning. That is, you can stuff it with just about any message that suits the axe you want to grind.

Katabole wrote:At the same time, I don't want to over-analyze the parable.

Too late!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:The beauty of the Allegorical Method of biblical interpretation is its plasticity of meaning. That is, you can stuff it with just about any message that suits the axe you want to grind.

Umm, since you didn't go into any detail whatsoever as to how you understand it FL, what is your take on it? Do you hold to the traditional Catholic teaching that is described in the Purgatory doctrine or do you hold to the Reformed Baptist position that it is not a parable and it is a literal rendering?

For example, if it is literal then you must believe that the beggar resides literally on Abraham's bosom. Correct? Or that the rich man literally expected Lazarus to cross the gulf with a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

I have no axe to grind brother. I have less than 250 posts on this site in close to five years of being a member. If I had an axe to grind, I would probably have a few thousand posts by now. It is my experience that my views refuting the Hell doctrine, the Rapture theory and Young Earth Creationism do not result in debate but only cause argument or result in ad-hominem attacks and responses, indicative of yours, without the intellectual rigour found in a Theology classroom. It's almost similar to Ken Ham YEC cultism, because he really believes if you deny YEC you are not really a Christian. Same if you deny the Hell or Rapture doctrine...you're supposedly not really a Christian.

Over a decade ago, this question was brought up in my Theology class by our professor, given to us as a weekend assignment to be written in essay form. We were asked, "Is the story of the rich man and Lazarus a parable or is it literal? If it is literal explain it literally. If it is a parable explain it symbolically." My professor's take on it was that she did not know but considering that Jesus begins a series of parables in Luke 15 and continues those into Luke 16, she claimed, it is more than likely a parable thus it is symbolic and not literal.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Katabole wrote:
At the same time, I don't want to over-analyze the parable.


Too late!

Actually, in my Theology class, more than 2/3rds of my class of close to 30 students believed it was literal and some of them wrote very in-depth and long essay's; much longer than my response and in my opinion clearly not only misinterpreted it but over-analyzed it. Thousands of pages have been written over the years regarding the rich man and Lazarus and my brief response above is certainly not any form of over-analization in comparison.

Katabole wrote: It is my experience that my views refuting the Hell doctrine, the Rapture theory and Young Earth Creationism do not result in debate but only cause argument or result in ad-hominem attacks and responses, indicative of yours, without the intellectual rigour found in a Theology classroom. It's almost similar to Ken Ham YEC cultism, because he really believes if you deny YEC you are not really a Christian. Same if you deny the Hell or Rapture doctrine...you're supposedly not really a Christian.

Sorry, but I wasn't ''ad homineming'' you. Rather, I stated quite clearly that,

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:The beauty of the Allegorical Method of biblical interpretation is its plasticity of meaning. That is, you can stuff it with just about any message that suits the axe you want to grind.

I am aware that those who deny the doctrine of eternal punishment invariably interpret the story of Lazarus & the Rich Man as the Gentile/Jew story you summarized earlier. You may want to ask yourself why Jesus used a guy called Lazarus - a very Jewish name - to represent the Gentiles. You may also want to ask yourself why a humble & gentle man like Jesus spent so much of His time warning people about hell. (Of course, Preterists and mystics will have ready answers but these must always violate the clear meaning of the words in the Bible in order make sense.)

Like I said earlier, the Allegorical method of biblical interpretation does not interpret Scripture, it stuffs it with new and strange meanings - plural - limited only by the mind of the interpreters.

Can someone who uses the Allegorical or Mystical methods be a Christian? Of course! but their understanding of the Bible will suffer. That's a very high price to pay just to be different.

FL

Whether it was a parable or an actual event, the point of the story was to make it clear what happens to those that CAN help others and don't, what happens to those that KNOW the gospel and ignore it.
There is also a very important message in th is part:

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may awarn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham * said, ‘They have aMoses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30 “But he said, ‘No, afather Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

There are a few points there:
The words of Moses and the Prophets were "all" that was need ( at that time) IF people listened to them ( and also the issue that, IF a person claims to follow the teachings of Moses and the prophets, then they don't have any excuse).
There is also the prophetic warning that we have all seen to be true:

"...they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead".

There are a few points there: The words of Moses and the Prophets were "all" that was need ( at that time) IF people listened to them ( and also the issue that, IF a person claims to follow the teachings of Moses and the prophets, then they don't have any excuse).
There is also the prophetic warning that we have all seen to be true:

"...they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead".
PaulSacramento

So true! This shows the limits of apologetics, and that a lack of knowledge or information is often not a person's real barrier to salvation. We clearly see in Scripture Jesus doing all kinds of fantastic miracles in front of people who nonetheless refused to believe, with some even so desperate in their unbelief as to attribute Jesus' miraculous abilities to the devil.

Furthermore, people often have these elaborate smokescreens they put out, often stating that, "if there were irrefutable proof, I would believe in God/Jesus." And such people often put up a host of rabbit trail arguments designed to keep themselves psychologically at ease with their own unbelief - as well as to keep Christians and their assertions at bay. But often what people say is not their REAL problem, as their real barrier may just be a stubborn, hard heart or selfishness - and so they go around masquerading as if they are sincerely open to belief, yet while also asserting that they find themselves lacking in validating evidences. Or their refusal to believe might well be emotional in nature, but they mask that with smokescreens about "wanting proof." Often, people have plenty of evidences to believe, they just refuse to, for various reasons.

When evangelizing people with barriers, we must first learn what their barriers TRULY are, and then, perhaps, we can be helpful by asking thoughtful questions designed to make their own answers and conclusions help THEMSELVES to realize what their true barriers actually are. A fantastic book that teaches how to do evangelism in this way is: "Conversational Evangelism" by Norman Geisler. I highly recommend it: http://www.amazon.com/Conversational-Ev ... evangelism