Evidence for God from Science

Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
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lukewamness ?

Just a thought fwiw. Let's say grace is hot. Let's also say the law is cold. Just like hot and cold are two opposites, living by grace, and living by the law are also two opposites. What happens when we mix hot water with cold? We get lukewarm. What happens when we mix living by grace, with living according to the law? Well, we get lukewarm Christians.

So, a believer living by grace will be hot. But mix in a little "living by the law", and you get lukewarm.

Like I said, just a thought.

Just a thought fwiw. Let's say grace is hot.

When I read this, my mind went in a total different direction, LOL !

PaulSacramento wrote:

Just a thought fwiw. Let's say grace is hot.

When I read this, my mind went in a total different direction, LOL !

Leave it to Rick - wrong kind of Grace...

Lukewarmness defined by the Laodicean Church mentioned in the book of Revelation…

Can Grace lead to a Christian’s Lukewarmness in his or her Christian walk?

Wasn’t talking about Thumper…

B. W. wrote:Leave it to Rick - wrong kind of Grace...

Lukewarmness defined by the Laodicean Church mentioned in the book of Revelation…

Can Grace lead to a Christian’s Lukewarmness in his or her Christian walk?

Wasn’t talking about Thumper…

B. W., wasn't the laodicean church known for their works? I think trying to work one's self to be right with God is what leads believers to be lukewarm in the Laodicean sense. God's grace is what sets us free from a "works" based relationship with God. If we rest in God's grace, and rest in what God has done, we live by the spirit, and God works through us. Nothing lukewarm in that.

But, if what you mean by lukewarm is "indifferent", then no to that too. I really can't see how anything other than our own sin, or perhaps our comfort in the things of this life would lead a believer to be indifferent. Certainly not God's grace.

RickD wrote:

B. W. wrote:Leave it to Rick - wrong kind of Grace...

Lukewarmness defined by the Laodicean Church mentioned in the book of Revelation…

Can Grace lead to a Christian’s Lukewarmness in his or her Christian walk?

Wasn’t talking about Thumper…

B. W., wasn't the laodicean church known for their works? I think trying to work one's self to be right with God is what leads believers to be lukewarm in the Laodicean sense. God's grace is what sets us free from a "works" based relationship with God. If we rest in God's grace, and rest in what God has done, we live by the spirit, and God works through us. Nothing lukewarm in that.

But, if what you mean by lukewarm is "indifferent", then no to that too. I really can't see how anything other than our own sin, or perhaps our comfort in the things of this life would lead a believer to be indifferent. Certainly not God's grace.

Rev 3:15 ESV, "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!"

Their works were neither refreshingly Hot or refreshingly Cold but tepid - as stale stagnated water fermenting slime. That is the meaning of Lukewarmness from the Greek text - tepid stagnate water.

So can an over balanced emphasis about Grace cause one to stagnate? Think of Revelation 3:17 the first 13 words or so, as defining how one reinterprets the function of grace...

Catch it - never said God's Grace as defined by God but rather Grace as redefined according to how man/woman defines it for himself/herself. Again read Revelation 3:17 ESV for this redefinition:

"For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."
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B. W. wrote:Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
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If thinking along Puritan lines, then probably. But even a puritan is imperfect no? If thinking about displaying Gods love to others then legalism is very cold and grace hot.

I tend to see legalism as very self-reflexive whereas grace allows one to just look outwardly to loving and accepting others. There is merit to both, but I prefer to look less at perfecting myself and more to something that is more achievable like helping others. Not that I'm necessarily great either way.

Kurieuo wrote:

B. W. wrote:Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
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If thinking along Puritan lines, then probably. But even a puritan is imperfect no? If thinking about displaying Gods love to others then legalism is very cold and grace hot.

I tend to see legalism as very self-reflexive whereas grace allows one to just look outwardly to loving and accepting others. There is merit to both, but I prefer to look less at perfecting myself and more to something that is more achievable like helping others. Not that I'm necessarily great either way.

Good post!

Do you think that many well meaning Christians do not understand what the intent of God's Grace for them is personally?

Does anyone else reading this think that the intent of God's Grace means moving forward or just remain stagnating?
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B. W. wrote:Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
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Yes.

SB

B. W. wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

B. W. wrote:Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
-
-
-

If thinking along Puritan lines, then probably. But even a puritan is imperfect no? If thinking about displaying Gods love to others then legalism is very cold and grace hot.

I tend to see legalism as very self-reflexive whereas grace allows one to just look outwardly to loving and accepting others. There is merit to both, but I prefer to look less at perfecting myself and more to something that is more achievable like helping others. Not that I'm necessarily great either way.

Good post!

Do you think that many well meaning Christians do not understand what the intent of God's Grace for them is personally?

Does anyone else reading this think that the intent of God's Grace means moving forward or just remain stagnating?
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B. W. I don't think anyone would argue that the intent of God's Grace means for us to remain stagnating. The disagreement lies in how we as believers grow in God's Grace.

So, TELL IT BROTHER BRYAN!!!!!

B. W. wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

B. W. wrote:Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
-
-
-

If thinking along Puritan lines, then probably. But even a puritan is imperfect no? If thinking about displaying Gods love to others then legalism is very cold and grace hot.

I tend to see legalism as very self-reflexive whereas grace allows one to just look outwardly to loving and accepting others. There is merit to both, but I prefer to look less at perfecting myself and more to something that is more achievable like helping others. Not that I'm necessarily great either way.

Good post!

Do you think that many well meaning Christians do not understand what the intent of God's Grace for them is personally?

Does anyone else reading this think that the intent of God's Grace means moving forward or just remain stagnating?
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I'd bring to discussion down to first defining what "God's Grace" is.

To me God's Grace is just not holding us to account for our offenses to/against God. Christ was required to allow God's Wrath to be replaced with His Grace. I don't know whether there is an intent behind it other than just that.

Whatever stems from that, whether it leads to someone being "like warm", or perhaps sinning all the more so that more grace abounds, or perhaps desiring to change and move forward for the better... such is a reflection on the person. It is not a reflection on God's Grace, its intent of whether it is suppose to be positive motivator or negative motivator for changing who one morally is. God's Grace is freely there for all who want to be under it. For me, I'll take it and still aim to be better, not because God necessarily desires it, but because I desire it to be a better person according to God's tastes.

What is really an issue now for Christians under grace I think, is how we behave and treat others. Our offense to God is removed, but we still offend others... and God, even in the Lord's prayer... it is clear He wants us to show the same grace to each other. Forgive each others offenses, and certainly I know I offend people even those close. If I give the same grace that I hope I receive when I offend, then my oddities or someone else's really doesn't matter. Of course there are different levels of offense -- I'm not trying to broad stroke here. But often I find small/petty offenses come between people even family.

Now, while there is perhaps no intent to God's Grace other than simply what it is -- an acceptance despite one's offense -- there is, I think, a natural outworking of grace. To the person who just thinks I'll sin all the more since I'm under God's grace, such to me is a stupid person. I can't see how they can seriously love God to continually offend and draw upon God's grace. Personally, and it's my opinion, if they remain that way for the rest of their life I can't help but see that such a person is just trampling Christ's gift and God's grace under their foot and I think Hebrews 10 deals with this, particularly Hebrews 10:29.

A natural outworking of grace, I think, is to melt someone the inside-out and a natural change and disposition is brought about. A movie that came to me when I thought on this was Beauty and the Beast. The grace shown by the Beauty despite the offense, even if imperfect, melted and changed the Beast. The Beast looked to remain cold and hardened for a while, but eventually change happened -- and I think that is akin to God's grace working in us. People who come to Christ as they are begin at their own starting point. Some may be extremely hardened in their ways, some may be entirely wrapped in a sinful life, but eventually the layers peel off. To an observer it may not be seen, because the layers are peeling off from the inside-out. And eventually the refined gold starts to be seen.

So, one could look to stagnate for years... but an outside observer really doesn't know how God's grace is transforming another. And really, such is not our place except where others could be led astray by the wrong beliefs a child in Christ brings to the table -- or a congregation. Legalism though, can still be a good thing since it keeps holding up a mirror and raising the bar to the next level. We so resist being judged, but it's like a challenge to better ourselves. When we face judgement from others, take it on board, carefully evaluate it and either change or move on -- but the one thing we are not is condemned for failing because God's Grace is stronger than our failings.

Anyway, I could go on and on it seems... but I'll stop now.

Kurieuo wrote:

B. W. wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

B. W. wrote:Question:

Can Grace lead to Lukewarmness in the Church?

Thoughts?
-
-
-

If thinking along Puritan lines, then probably. But even a puritan is imperfect no? If thinking about displaying Gods love to others then legalism is very cold and grace hot.

I tend to see legalism as very self-reflexive whereas grace allows one to just look outwardly to loving and accepting others. There is merit to both, but I prefer to look less at perfecting myself and more to something that is more achievable like helping others. Not that I'm necessarily great either way.

Good post!

Do you think that many well meaning Christians do not understand what the intent of God's Grace for them is personally?

Does anyone else reading this think that the intent of God's Grace means moving forward or just remain stagnating?
-
-
-

I'd bring to discussion down to first defining what "God's Grace" is.

To me God's Grace is just not holding us to account for our offenses to/against God. Christ was required to allow God's Wrath to be replaced with His Grace. I don't know whether there is an intent behind it other than just that.

Whatever stems from that, whether it leads to someone being "like warm", or perhaps sinning all the more so that more grace abounds, or perhaps desiring to change and move forward for the better... such is a reflection on the person. It is not a reflection on God's Grace, its intent of whether it is suppose to be positive motivator or negative motivator for changing who one morally is. God's Grace is freely there for all who want to be under it. For me, I'll take it and still aim to be better, not because God necessarily desires it, but because I desire it to be a better person according to God's tastes.

What is really an issue now for Christians under grace I think, is how we behave and treat others. Our offense to God is removed, but we still offend others... and God, even in the Lord's prayer... it is clear He wants us to show the same grace to each other. Forgive each others offenses, and certainly I know I offend people even those close. If I give the same grace that I hope I receive when I offend, then my oddities or someone else's really doesn't matter. Of course there are different levels of offense -- I'm not trying to broad stroke here. But often I find small/petty offenses come between people even family.

Now, while there is perhaps no intent to God's Grace other than simply what it is -- an acceptance despite one's offense -- there is, I think, a natural outworking of grace. To the person who just thinks I'll sin all the more since I'm under God's grace, such to me is a stupid person. I can't see how they can seriously love God to continually offend and draw upon God's grace. Personally, and it's my opinion, if they remain that way for the rest of their life I can't help but see that such a person is just trampling Christ's gift and God's grace under their foot and I think Hebrews 10 deals with this, particularly Hebrews 10:29.

A natural outworking of grace, I think, is to melt someone the inside-out and a natural change and disposition is brought about. A movie that came to me when I thought on this was Beauty and the Beast. The grace shown by the Beauty despite the offense, even if imperfect, melted and changed the Beast. The Beast looked to remain cold and hardened for a while, but eventually change happened -- and I think that is akin to God's grace working in us. People who come to Christ as they are begin at their own starting point. Some may be extremely hardened in their ways, some may be entirely wrapped in a sinful life, but eventually the layers peel off. To an observer it may not be seen, because the layers are peeling off from the inside-out. And eventually the refined gold starts to be seen.

So, one could look to stagnate for years... but an outside observer really doesn't know how God's grace is transforming another. And really, such is not our place except where others could be led astray by the wrong beliefs a child in Christ brings to the table -- or a congregation. Legalism though, can still be a good thing since it keeps holding up a mirror and raising the bar to the next level. We so resist being judged, but it's like a challenge to better ourselves. When we face judgement from others, take it on board, carefully evaluate it and either change or move on -- but the one thing we are not is condemned for failing because God's Grace is stronger than our failings.

Anyway, I could go on and on it seems... but I'll stop now.

Very well said!

Keep going!
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Thanks B.W. - I really wasn't sure you'd agree with what I said, but gives me a warm fuzzy feeling know you liked it.