Evidence for God from Science

This is one of the greatest problems that troubles philosophers around the world.
(and one of the greatest arguments of atheists around the world...)

Why do good people suffer?

I think the problem can be solved if we understand that it is not really a problem.

Who are we to know that suffering is "bad" ?
Who are we to know that being "happy" in this short material life is our purpose on this planet?

As C.S. Lewis said:

The real problem is not why some pious, humble, believing people suffer, but why some do not.
The safest road to hell is the gradual one – the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.

[http://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress.c ... le-suffer/]

Rating the "goodness" of people is a very human thing to do, we have all fallen short of the glory of God and therefore we are all sinners, I don't believe that there are any levels to that. You're either a sinner, or you're not.

[for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, - Romans 3:23 NIV]

SB

Not going into the subject of good and bad people...

There appear to be two major types of answers that seem to abound: (1) Systematic Theology textbooks and (2) direct testimonies of those on the receiving end of suffering. The second group is about those directly (their own experience) or indirectly involved in suffering (their relatives, close ones, those in care or awareness).

One thing that seems to be very true is that suffering, when considered as a subject of the academic discussion, is quite different from suffering as a challenge you have to work through yourself in a real life.

Some people differentiate suffering from pain, both physical and emotional, and it seems that it is useful to notice, that if we are angry about the pain and resist it as something that is not ultimately God sent (or at least a permitted as in the Job’s case), our suffering multiplies.

I have not suffered much in my life, thus I do not consider to be qualified to discuss it in depth. However, it will be my prayer that I am actually not exposed to too big pains and suffering that could cause temptation beyond my power to resist. I went through Job a couple of times, and I think he was close at some stage to follow his wife’s advice to “curse God and die.” I think that some big pain and at the same time inability to have a meaningful understanding how this relates to our dealings with God may be horribly adding to the anguish and horror of suffering. I think Paul gives a remedy to this in Romans 5:3, in which the entire sequence commencing with our “rejoicing” in sufferings up to the God’s love, makes sense only as a holistic experience, otherwise all suffering would be unbearable, because it will be an isolated event without any meaning.

Felt like deja vu reading this for the third time!

SB

Sam1995 wrote:Felt like deja vu reading this for the third time!

SB

Fixed. Double AND triple posts deleted.

Why do people suffer?
Well, the answer is really not that hard when you think of it.
People make bad choices and bad decisions that come back to bit them ( and civilization) on the butt.
The first thing we need to realize is that we do NOT live in a vacum, every choice we make and have made as humans effects us all now, yesterday and tomorrow.
The future generations will reap the good AND bad of our decisions today, in every regard.
Illnesses, viruses, our environment, our choice in construction material, everything we do effects Us.

Interesting read, recommended: Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People? – a critique of “When Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Rabbi Harold Kushner” written by Dr. Norman Geisler.

http://plafgridz.tripod.com/FetherPDFs/ ... People.pdf

Like I said earlier, is there really such a thing as a good person according to Christian faith? Maybe this will explain it.
You're either a sinner, or you're not.
If you're not, then you're on par with God.
Because you are a sinner, you aren't perfect.
Therefore you need grace to save you.
How good/bad you are doesn't matter.
You're still a sinner,
And you still need grace.

God gives us that grace. He gave it in the form of a person, and His name was Jesus.

SB

Sam1995 wrote:Like I said earlier, is there really such a thing as a good person according to Christian faith? Maybe this will explain it.
You're either a sinner, or you're not.
If you're not, then you're on par with God.
Because you are a sinner, you aren't perfect.
Therefore you need grace to save you.
How good/bad you are doesn't matter.
You're still a sinner,
And you still need grace.

God gives us that grace. He gave it in the form of a person, and His name was Jesus.

SB

Taking the easy way out I see !
LOL !
You won't find a Christian that doesn't agree, the problem is that it isn't a convincing argument to a skeptic that doesn't believe in sin.

Not sure I would call it the easy way out lol, it's a legitimate response!

If a skeptic doesn't believe in sin, then the whole idea of Christianity is completely stupid, invalid and irrelevant to humanity, so the skeptic could attack any area of Christian faith then because to them "there is no sin." In order to make ANY form of case for our faith, one must first justify that sin exists and we are the sinners.

SB

Maybe the easy way out, response wise to the skeptic, would be, 'suffering just evolved, right along side and hand in hand with your evolution theroy.'

It seems that there is much more to this. Even the person you label as a "skeptic" is capable of suffering and it may be physical, emotional and "spiritual" in a sense of anxiety and fear related to death and "meaninglessness" of life that does not consider any options for after death. From the viewpoint of the skeptic, Christian definition of "sin" is taken not theologically as a separation from God, but just a clever social engineering device to condition people and to sell them religious salvation. If there is no God, from which you can be be isolated by sin, the theory of salvation is just a religious marketing necessary to sell religious products and to rule people's minds. It is exactly because of this mind-set that the conversation with the skeptic is so difficult. While you want to offer them the solution to their biggest problem, which is sin that binds them, they believe that you want in fact enslave them by "selling them the solution" to the imagined problem, which is not a problem at all but a kind of clever device you use to condition them. Skeptics will find many justifications to explain sin away. For example, Ernst Becker wrote that the entire human drama or condition is about removing the consciousness of death by distracting human mind through pleasures of life, work or mythology (religion included) to help people to remove the awareness of death from the course of the "daily life." Such philosophers vividly see that human has to lie to himself and others about death, because the suffering caused by the meaninglessness of life that ends up with death forever is simply too much to bear and to remain psychologically healthy. The tragic point is that when they are told about Christianity that addresses the problem of death at its core and thus removes the cause of existential suffering, they prefer to reject it. The simple reason for this is that suffering they impose on themselves (i.e. the suffering caused by awareness of death and interpretation of death as the end of everything) is "of their own making," and as such paradoxically and painfully still flatters their ego - which is exactly what sin is about. They prefer to suffer, because this gives them at the same time a gratification coming from the fact that they live in reality defined by them rather than by God... which means that the existential suffering caused by inevitability and finality of death gives them pleasure of being on their own and living the life according to their definition of life and death. This gives them illusion of being in control of reality and being independent from God, which is an essence of sin. Cheers

@ Jurek - Very well said. It seems we are going to suffer, with or without God. But with the idea of accepting 'sin' means there will be more too it. i remember back in the prime of my fighting, skirt chasing and alcohol induced haze hobbies, a man talked too me about God and religion. I realized the things i was doing were a crime or sin against God and his principles. (not that i even fully believed at the time anyways) Which was too much. I did not want to put forth a effort to be held to a even higher standard of responsibility. Responsible now in a moral way, responsible in a mental, emotional, and spiritual way, so to speak. Just way too much, in too many areas. (selfishness)
I wonder if this somewhat comes into play with many ? It did with me at that time. Just my two cents. Thanks

Suffering and with it, compassion, is a very human trait that we don't find as much in the animal kingdom.
Some would say it is an evolved feeling, a sign of our high mental conscience.
The issue is NOT that we suffer or even that we have compassion, it can be argued that other animals feel the same, the issue is WHY we feel it should NOT be so.
Why do we feel that "good" people should not suffer ( and by default that bad people suffering have done it to themselves and deserve it), where did this notion of act and consequence come from?
There is no reason to think that there is such a thing as "good" and there is no reason to think that whether some is good or bad should effect if they suffer or not.
So why do we feel.think that?

PaulSacramento wrote:Suffering and with it, compassion, is a very human trait that we don't find as much in the animal kingdom.
Some would say it is an evolved feeling, a sign of our high mental conscience.
The issue is NOT that we suffer or even that we have compassion, it can be argued that other animals feel the same, the issue is WHY we feel it should NOT be so.
Why do we feel that "good" people should not suffer ( and by default that bad people suffering have done it to themselves and deserve it), where did this notion of act and consequence come from?
There is no reason to think that there is such a thing as "good" and there is no reason to think that whether some is good or bad should effect if they suffer or not.
So why do we feel.think that?

I do not how other think, I can just share my struggles in this area. If you are interested, please read on - if mot, just ignore this post.

"Why do we feel that "good" people should not suffer?"

Because somewhere inside us, I think, we believe we are "good" people ourselves and as a "good people" we have a right to be not only removed from suffering, but also repulsed by even the prospect of suffering. We would rather delude ourselves that by "belonging" to the privileged group we are done with suffering, because every member of this elite group should by definition escape suffering. Why? - it seems that because "being good" means we somehow scored some points with God ("by being good enough?") and as such we should be freed from any calamity. This thinking reveals two things. First - we still need to understand more the concept of grace - there is simply no way we can score any points with God. Second - this mindset might reveal we are still not quite ready to be fully dependent on God, we are clinging to some level of control that would take us above suffering, so that we can "love" God undisturbed by the any, especially negative circumstances. I think God pulls us away from this state because it is a dangerous one - such state of conditional love might easily degenerate into no more than using God to go through life harmless. We might think we do not want "good" people to suffer, because we do not want to suffer, and deep in our deluded minds we consider ourselves good. And this is the real problem - suffering may reveal to us that we are neither good not actually God-loving, and while this could bring positive change in our attitude to God, it may be quite painful way because it leads through revealing plainly to us who we are. So sin in us may prompt us to avoid suffering - which Satan understand might turn into the revealing light that could bring us closer to God, and in order to avoid this from happening, Satan is keen to give us both: the feeling that we are OK and that suffering is useless, that we are far above it. Cheers