Evidence for God from Science

One question for scientific-minded Christians: How do you reconcile the anthropocentricity of the Bible with generally accepted scientific facts about the world around us?

For example, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and the fossil record shows prehistoric creatures have lived for hundreds of millions of years on this planet, and yet all this focus by the supposed creator on a species that has been around for no more than a mere blip on the time scale? Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago? Another example would be the estimate of hundreds of millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone, i.e., the chances of our species being the only sentient creatures in the universe seems infinitesimally small, and yet once again this special treatment on our insignificant species on an insignificant planet from the supposed creator of everything. Other than standard cop-outs like "God works in mysterious ways" or "Who are we to judge God's will and ways" how do you reconcile these kinds of issues in your own mind, or do you simply allow your faith to bury reasonable inquiry?

I may not have posed this question in the most elegant or polite fashion but my motivation in asking is sincere. I assume many Christians are also skeptical and reason-driven, and it is from this subset of Christians that I seek responses (i.e., Young Earth creationists, etc. need not respond).

agnosticfornow wrote:One question for scientific-minded Christians: How do you reconcile the anthropocentricity of the Bible with generally accepted scientific facts about the world around us?

For example, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and the fossil record shows prehistoric creatures have lived for hundreds of millions of years on this planet, and yet all this focus by the supposed creator on a species that has been around for no more than a mere blip on the time scale? Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago? Another example would be the estimate of hundreds of millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone, i.e., the chances of our species being the only sentient creatures in the universe seems infinitesimally small, and yet once again this special treatment on our insignificant species on an insignificant planet from the supposed creator of everything. Other than standard cop-outs like "God works in mysterious ways" or "Who are we to judge God's will and ways" how do you reconcile these kinds of issues in your own mind, or do you simply allow your faith to bury reasonable inquiry?

I may not have posed this question in the most elegant or polite fashion but my motivation in asking is sincere. I assume many Christians are also skeptical and reason-driven, and it is from this subset of Christians that I seek responses (i.e., Young Earth creationists, etc. need not respond).

You'll find the answers to a lot of your questions on the www.godandscience.org website under "answers for atheists" and other areas

The question of why God waited before starting the human race is a very interesting one, I believe that it happened at the correct time. I believe that God waited until the earth was in the perfect state for humanity to survive and flourish. I also believe that we are masters of the destruction of earth, so we are the reason as to why the planet is not in the original state that God had intended for it to be in.

Secondly, your question of the sanctity of human life and life on other planets rests completely on assumption. Quite simply, nobody has much of a strong idea as to what is actually out there. So from the very offset this argument is invalid, because it rests completely on the assumption that we will eventually find life on another planet which is complete speculation. Also, the Bible does not mention life on other planets, but it does mention other planets. Either this means that there is no life on other planets or if so, God has not told us about them in His word. This is not a "cop-out" by any means, heaven and hell are topics which nobody can fully understand within the human intelligence, you don't hear anybody calling arguments "cop-outs" then.

I believe that science can point us closer towards the truth, and the truth is that there is a God who rules of this universe and this planet and that we as people can grow to have an intimate, one on one relationship with Him.


SB

agnosticfornow wrote:One question for scientific-minded Christians: How do you reconcile the anthropocentricity of the Bible with generally accepted scientific facts about the world around us?

Have you considered the possibility that the generally accepted scientific facts might be wrong? Perhaps you should check out these sites:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

http://scienceagainstevolution.info/index.shtml

For example, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and the fossil record shows prehistoric creatures have lived for hundreds of millions of years on this planet, and yet all this focus by the supposed creator on a species that has been around for no more than a mere blip on the time scale? Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago?

How do you know these things are true? These are estimates made by scientists who assume that everything that exists came about as a result of the natural processes we can observe today and that there has never been any kind of divine intervention in the universe. If that assumption is wrong then these estimates are meaningless. In any case there is no way we can test their findings to find out whether or not they are correct. Only things that can be observed or tested scientifically can be considered scientific facts and estimates of the age of the universe or the earth don't fall into either category.

Another example would be the estimate of hundreds of millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone, i.e., the chances of our species being the only sentient creatures in the universe seems infinitesimally small, and yet once again this special treatment on our insignificant species on an insignificant planet from the supposed creator of everything.

How do you know we are getting special treatment? We have absolutely no information about how beings other than those on earth are treated. The Bible was meant for humans and is intended to tell us the things we need to know about God. We don't know whether there is life on other planets or how God treats those beings so God has chosen not to give us any information about these subjects

Other than standard cop-outs like "God works in mysterious ways" or "Who are we to judge God's will and ways" how do you reconcile these kinds of issues in your own mind, or do you simply allow your faith to bury reasonable inquiry?

There is nothing that needs to be reconciled.

I may not have posed this question in the most elegant or polite fashion but my motivation in asking is sincere. I assume many Christians are also skeptical and reason-driven, and it is from this subset of Christians that I seek responses (i.e., Young Earth creationists, etc. need not respond).

When you are trying to learn something it is dangerous to limit your search to one group of people because someone not in that group might have the answers you are looking for.

agnosticfornow wrote:One question for scientific-minded Christians: How do you reconcile the anthropocentricity of the Bible with generally accepted scientific facts about the world around us?

For example, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and the fossil record shows prehistoric creatures have lived for hundreds of millions of years on this planet, and yet all this focus by the supposed creator on a species that has been around for no more than a mere blip on the time scale? Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago? Another example would be the estimate of hundreds of millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone, i.e., the chances of our species being the only sentient creatures in the universe seems infinitesimally small, and yet once again this special treatment on our insignificant species on an insignificant planet from the supposed creator of everything. Other than standard cop-outs like "God works in mysterious ways" or "Who are we to judge God's will and ways" how do you reconcile these kinds of issues in your own mind, or do you simply allow your faith to bury reasonable inquiry?

I may not have posed this question in the most elegant or polite fashion but my motivation in asking is sincere. I assume many Christians are also skeptical and reason-driven, and it is from this subset of Christians that I seek responses (i.e., Young Earth creationists, etc. need not respond).

I'm jumping in anyway.
-First of all, your post is question begging. You assume that there is something to reconcile, which presumes there is a conflict.
-Where did you get your estimate of hundreds of millions of habitible planets in our own galaxy?
-You presume insignificance based on what? Size, volume? Arbitrary.
-If you spent any time on this forum, you would certainly not find people allowing faith to bury reasonable inquiry.

Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago?

Where did you get that info?

Thank you for all your responses, especially Sam1995 and theophilus.

Sam1995 - I don't get why an omnipotent God would need to wait billions of years to get our planet in a perfect state for humanity to flourish.

theophilus - You say "[o]nly things that can be observed or tested scientifically can be considered scientific facts and estimates of the age of the universe or the earth don't fall into either category." Taking your definition then it is a scientific fact that the universe is at least 12 billion years old since scientists have recently observed/measured with some pretty fancy telescopes distant supernovae that exploded about that long ago: See
http://www.space.com/18298-oldest-farth ... sions.html. As for the age of the Earth, that would be harder to directly measure with our current technology. But the 12 billion year minimum age of the universe is sufficient for the present context and my query about anthropocentrism. 12 billion years of the universe kicking around, and then suddenly the Christian God decides to stir up some action on our planet. In partial response to one of jlay's points, I see insignificance based at least on the scale of time (2000 years versus 12,000,000,000 years) and size (our planet versus size of observable universe).

theophilus has mentioned that it is dangerous to limit my questioning to one group of people because people outside of that group may have the answers I seek. That's a valid point but in my past experience I have had much more enlightening conversations with those with whom some I share more common ground. Interfaith discussions for example tend be between the moderates not the extremists.

theophilus also notes that there is no reason to believe we are getting special treatment since we don't know what the Christian God is up to in other worlds, if there are other worlds. I would think that being created in His image and likeness is getting special treatment. In any event, would it be fair then for me to take your point as your acknowledging the **possibility** of the Christian God doing His thing on other possible worlds, e.g. sacrificing Christ's siblings (or perhaps Christ himself over and over again) to save other alien races created in his image and likeness from their sins, etc. etc.?

jlay - my estimate of hundreds of millions habitable planets in our own galaxy. Sorry, make that billions of habitable planets:
http://kepler.nasa.gov/news/newsaboutpl ... NewsID=198
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/28 ... tronomers/

I acknowledge jlay's point about presuming there is a conflict. My bad. At present, **I** see a conflict, and would like to continue to hear the views of those who don't see one and why.

agnosticfornow wrote:Sam1995 - I don't get why an omnipotent God would need to wait billions of years to get our planet in a perfect state for humanity to flourish.

God exists outside of time, time is meaningless to God. Everything that is or was or will be, God sees all at once, hard concept for us to wrap our heads around.

The Bible says a thousands years is like one day and one day is like a thousand years for God. 2 Peter 3:8


Dan

agnosticfornow wrote:One question for scientific-minded Christians: How do you reconcile the anthropocentricity of the Bible with generally accepted scientific facts about the world around us?

For example, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and the fossil record shows prehistoric creatures have lived for hundreds of millions of years on this planet, and yet all this focus by the supposed creator on a species that has been around for no more than a mere blip on the time scale? Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago?

God plans have been there since the start of creation. Jeremiah 1:5

Jesus was already planned before he came. John 1:1

Because God is all knowing and exists outside of time, your question becomes a little meaningless.

agnosticfornow wrote: Another example would be the estimate of hundreds of millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone, i.e., the chances of our species being the only sentient creatures in the universe seems infinitesimally small, and yet once again this special treatment on our insignificant species on an insignificant planet from the supposed creator of everything. Other than standard cop-outs like "God works in mysterious ways" or "Who are we to judge God's will and ways" how do you reconcile these kinds of issues in your own mind, or do you simply allow your faith to bury reasonable inquiry?

The Bible does not say anything about other species on other planets, they may exist they may not, there are too many unknowns in your question.

The Bible is a love story between man and God, maybe aliens have their own book, maybe they were smarter than us and didn't need one and have a close personal relationship with their creator.

agnosticfornow wrote: I may not have posed this question in the most elegant or polite fashion but my motivation in asking is sincere. I assume many Christians are also skeptical and reason-driven, and it is from this subset of Christians that I seek responses (i.e., Young Earth creationists, etc. need not respond).

That's ok none of us are perfect. I wouldn't pigeon hole YEC's, some I know are very rational and logical people, even though I don't agree with them I still respect their opinion and really at the end of the day it matters little to having faith in God.


Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

agnosticfornow wrote:Sam1995 - I don't get why an omnipotent God would need to wait billions of years to get our planet in a perfect state for humanity to flourish.

God exists outside of time, time is meaningless to God. Everything that is or was or will be, God sees all at once, hard concept for us to wrap our heads around.

The Bible says a thousands years is like one day and one day is like a thousand years for God. 2 Peter 3:8


Dan

Thank you for that response Dan, I was going to put forward the same response but you have worded it better than I probably could!

Yes, to build on the point that Dan made in your response to my original argument, you need to stop thinking within our own time limits. Yes, God "waited" billions of years in order for the planet to be in exactly the right state for humanity to flourish, but that does not mean that this was billions of years to God, because He does not exist within the dimension of time. He created it, but does not exist within it. If God existed within the dimension of time, then when time eventually stops God would cease to exist because He wouldn't be able to exist outside of time.

A billion years is nothing more than a breath of wind to God.

SB

Dan and Sam1995 - I can readily see that there would be no conflict if you assume that an omnipresent, omniscient God exists. But what if the starting point is to not assume the existence or non-existence of God, but to base the reasonable inquiry on what is presently observable/measurable in our human capacity (since everything else would be based, to some degree, on faith)? We have the geologic column, fossil records, powerful telescopes, etc. that at least strongly suggest the insignificance of our time period, our species, and our planet. Take the observations/measurements of modern astronomy alone - billions of habitable planets in a universe that is billions of years old. Why the focus on a species that have been around for only a handful of millenia on a speck of dust?

All of that said, I think one of you suggested that the Bible is simply God's special message to our species, and that God may have other special messages to other possible beings of other worlds and other times. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Hi agnosticfornow.

Why you call us insignificant species?

Btw, I myself am scientifically minded.

Hi 1over137 - I guess I meant to say I believe we are an insignificant species relative to the temporal and spatial scale of the universe. b.t.w. I like your quote from Thessalonians!

agnosticfornow wrote:Hi 1over137 - I guess I meant to say I believe we are an insignificant species relative to the temporal and spatial scale of the universe.

You can look at it that way. Or you can look at it from the perspective of how extremely lucky, as if it were a miracle.

agnosticfornow wrote:One question for scientific-minded Christians: How do you reconcile the anthropocentricity of the Bible with generally accepted scientific facts about the world around us?

For example, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and the fossil record shows prehistoric creatures have lived for hundreds of millions of years on this planet, and yet all this focus by the supposed creator on a species that has been around for no more than a mere blip on the time scale? Our species has been around for tens of thousands of years, but the creator only decides to put his plan into motion a couple of thousands of years ago? Another example would be the estimate of hundreds of millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone, i.e., the chances of our species being the only sentient creatures in the universe seems infinitesimally small, and yet once again this special treatment on our insignificant species on an insignificant planet from the supposed creator of everything. Other than standard cop-outs like "God works in mysterious ways" or "Who are we to judge God's will and ways" how do you reconcile these kinds of issues in your own mind, or do you simply allow your faith to bury reasonable inquiry?

I may not have posed this question in the most elegant or polite fashion but my motivation in asking is sincere. I assume many Christians are also skeptical and reason-driven, and it is from this subset of Christians that I seek responses (i.e., Young Earth creationists, etc. need not respond).

I think you might want to reconsider those odds for life existing on other worlds.

http://worldview3.50webs.com/etlifeprobability.html

This is from an article by hugh ross who details why the chances are extremely low for life on other worlds.

Im an old earth creationist. You must also remember that the hebrew word for day is YOM which can mean literal day or time period. In fact in my parents culture they we will use the word Yom in everyday chatter, and its normal word to use and we also use to either mean literal day or time period.

agnosticfornow wrote:Dan and Sam1995 - I can readily see that there would be no conflict if you assume that an omnipresent, omniscient God exists. But what if the starting point is to not assume the existence or non-existence of God, but to base the reasonable inquiry on what is presently observable/measurable in our human capacity (since everything else would be based, to some degree, on faith)? We have the geologic column, fossil records, powerful telescopes, etc. that at least strongly suggest the insignificance of our time period, our species, and our planet. Take the observations/measurements of modern astronomy alone - billions of habitable planets in a universe that is billions of years old. Why the focus on a species that have been around for only a handful of millenia on a speck of dust?

All of that said, I think one of you suggested that the Bible is simply God's special message to our species, and that God may have other special messages to other possible beings of other worlds and other times. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

You question is confusing, on one hand you say

But what if the starting point is to not assume the existence or non-existence of God, but to base the reasonable inquiry on what is presently observable/measurable in our human capacity (since everything else would be based, to some degree, on faith)?

then in the next breath you invoke God

Why the focus on a species that have been around for only a handful of millenia on a speck of dust?

So you want me to not presuppose God's existance and then answer why he would focus on a species that has been around for only a handful of millenia on a speck of dust. Do you see how you talking out of both sides of your mouth.

How can I answer a question about God if you want me to be in a state of not knowing, this just does not make any sense to me.
Dan