Evidence for God from Science

I understand some Christians believe God carves out an exception for non-believers who have not had the opportunity, or possess the capacity, to accept Jesus. But surely someone like the Dalai Lama, who hobnobs with the likes of Rowan Williams and Desmond Tutu, wouldn't fall into that group. And I think it's safe to assume that the Dalai Lama would not accept Jesus Christ as his one and only saviour if asked point blank.

I anticipate some answers along the lines of "only God can decide" or "God may make allowances in special circumstances", but these aren't particularly helpful. If the line is not drawn at explicit or implicit acceptance/rejection of Christ, then where is it drawn?

agnosticfornow wrote:I understand some Christians believe God carves out an exception for non-believers who have not had the opportunity, or possess the capacity, to accept Jesus. But surely someone like the Dalai Lama, who hobnobs with the likes of Rowan Williams and Desmond Tutu, wouldn't fall into that group. And I think it's safe to assume that the Dalai Lama would not accept Jesus Christ as his one and only saviour if asked point blank.

I anticipate some answers along the lines of "only God can decide" or "God may make allowances in special circumstances", but these aren't particularly helpful. If the line is not drawn at explicit or implicit acceptance/rejection of Christ, then where is it drawn?

God grace is bigger than anything we can understand, the Bible says it is not up to us to think about if people are going here or there, it also says we will be suprised at who we will find at the end of the road.
Matthew 7:12-17

Here is a link to all the Bible verses on heaven, read them and make up your own mind http://www.openbible.info/topics/getting_into_heaven

Speculation just causes confusion and missrepresentations, all I know is that I love God and he loves me and I will try to share that with as many people as I can.


Dan

The line is drawn at acceptance/rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
That is what I believe, anyway! I don't think you'll find many people of the Christian faith who disagree!

SB

Sam1995 wrote:The line is drawn at acceptance/rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
That is what I believe, anyway! I don't think you'll find many people of the Christian faith who disagree!

SB

If someone didnt experience the gospel presented to them in the right way, how can they be held accountable for that? As far as what is the right way, only God fully knows this.
For example if someone were brought up in a muslim culture surrounded by muslims. If he never has the chance to hear the gospel in a correct manner do u believe he will be judged on this?
God's ways are beyond our ways, God understanding is way beyond our understanding.

But on the other hand if you purposely lead someone away from God and never asked for forgiveness for this, then WOH unto you, for your going to have to face Jesus on your judgment day, and good luck in trying to explain this one to him. Jesus said it is better for that person to have never been born then to lead one of his sheep astray.

Whether one NEVER hearing about Jesus or NEVER provided the Gospel can make it or could have made it into heaven is addressed in detail in this linked thread: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36261

I think it's pretty safe to assume the Dalai Lama is aware of the Christian message and that he's sticking with Buddhism.

Alternatively, will the Pope achieve nirvana?

I understand some Christians believe God carves out an exception for non-believers who have not had the opportunity, or possess the capacity, to accept Jesus. But surely someone like the Dalai Lama, who hobnobs with the likes of Rowan Williams and Desmond Tutu, wouldn't fall into that group. And I think it's safe to assume that the Dalai Lama would not accept Jesus Christ as his one and only saviour if asked point blank.

I am not sure about the Dalia Lama but I can tell you who may be going to hell, and the top of the list might be the self-righteous crowd.

neo-x wrote:but I can tell you who may be going to hell

I can tell you who may win the lottery, unfortunately I can't tell you who will win the lottery......

I can tell you who may win the lottery, unfortunately I can't tell you who will win the lottery......

agnosticfornow wrote:I understand some Christians believe God carves out an exception for non-believers who have not had the opportunity, or possess the capacity, to accept Jesus. But surely someone like the Dalai Lama, who hobnobs with the likes of Rowan Williams and Desmond Tutu, wouldn't fall into that group. And I think it's safe to assume that the Dalai Lama would not accept Jesus Christ as his one and only saviour if asked point blank.

I anticipate some answers along the lines of "only God can decide" or "God may make allowances in special circumstances", but these aren't particularly helpful. If the line is not drawn at explicit or implicit acceptance/rejection of Christ, then where is it drawn?

Would knowing whether Dalai Lama will be in heaven or not be helpful to you? If yes, why?

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Proinsias wrote:Alternatively, will the Pope achieve nirvana?

I think the popes goal is the same as every Christians goal and that is to be with our lord and savior in heaven, who is all good and all loving. Truth is not subjective, but objective.
My goal is heaven, and I couldn't see myself wanting anything else

bippy123 wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:The line is drawn at acceptance/rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
That is what I believe, anyway! I don't think you'll find many people of the Christian faith who disagree!

SB

If someone didnt experience the gospel presented to them in the right way, how can they be held accountable for that? As far as what is the right way, only God fully knows this.
For example if someone were brought up in a muslim culture surrounded by muslims. If he never has the chance to hear the gospel in a correct manner do u believe he will be judged on this?
God's ways are beyond our ways, God understanding is way beyond our understanding.

But on the other hand if you purposely lead someone away from God and never asked for forgiveness for this, then WOH unto you, for your going to have to face Jesus on your judgment day, and good luck in trying to explain this one to him. Jesus said it is better for that person to have never been born then to lead one of his sheep astray.

That's a very good point bippy! Whenever a person is raised in a Muslim home, or even in an atheist home for that matter. They are brought up with the concept of the Muslim god or that there is no god at all, then they still have opportunity to hear the gospel. I remember reading an article on the website about this and I have to say I wholly agree with what it said, it made the point that the idea of growing up in a non-Christian home isn't really an excuse. I think people should justify what they believe and why they believe it, I also think that God will use many ways to reveal Himself to people enough that they will at least have knowledge of Christian scripture. On that basis, I think you made a good indirect point because there are times when there can be complications and I'll agree with you there that we must leave the choice up to God then. However in a vast majority of cases I think the same criteria still stand as the way to get into heaven.

I wholly agree with your second point.

SB

Sam1995 wrote:The line is drawn at acceptance/rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
That is what I believe, anyway! I don't think you'll find many people of the Christian faith who disagree!

SB

Looking at someone like Christopher hitchens, he not only said he didn't believe in God but also stated that he wouldn't want to be in heaven. This is a clear and stubborn rejection of God (it can't get any more plain than that). Sam, I think what you mean was a fully conscience decision to reject Christ even after fully understanding him, but in the end only God knows the tiniest details of a persons heart. We all know that a persons good works and deeds can only come from God.

What do we make of a person that has lived his life with Gods light showng through the deeds of his heart, yet never being exposed to the gospels completely ? I'm not talking about an atheist who willfully rejects Christ and tries to lure others away from Christ. The bible is very clear on that, and Jesus quite clearly said that it will be better for that person if they had never been born.

Remember the Caananite children who were killed by the Hebrews in the old testament ?
If God had allowed them to live and follow in their cultures footsteps to evil and ruin . I remember William lane Craig talking about how they never had the chance to hear the gospel properly.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if those children were in heaven with the lord, yet the gospels weren't made known to them were they?

Our lord is infinite not only in his justice, but also in his love and mercy, that's the lord I've always known and love.

bippy123 wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:The line is drawn at acceptance/rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
That is what I believe, anyway! I don't think you'll find many people of the Christian faith who disagree!

SB

Looking at someone like Christopher hitchens, he not only said he didn't believe in God but also stated that he wouldn't want to be in heaven. This is a clear and stubborn rejection of God (it can't get any more plain than that). Sam, I think what you mean was a fully conscience decision to reject Christ even after fully understanding him, but in the end only God knows the tiniest details of a persons heart. We all know that a persons good works and deeds can only come from God.

What do we make of a person that has lived his life with Gods light showng through the deeds of his heart, yet never being exposed to the gospels completely ? I'm not talking about an atheist who willfully rejects Christ and tries to lure others away from Christ. The bible is very clear on that, and Jesus quite clearly said that it will be better for that person if they had never been born.

Remember the Caananite children who were killed by the Hebrews in the old testament ?
If God had allowed them to live and follow in their cultures footsteps to evil and ruin . I remember William lane Craig talking about how they never had the chance to hear the gospel properly.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if those children were in heaven with the lord, yet the gospels weren't made known to them were they?

Our lord is infinite not only in his justice, but also in his love and mercy, that's the lord I've always known and love.

Very true, I agree with you completely! I suppose my original response was based on the assumption that the person has knowledge of the gospels and I should have made that point clearer.

SB