Evidence for God from Science

I'm certain this topic has been discussed here before, but I'm curious as to how the lot of you feel about the death penalty for certain crimes. I ask in the wake of talking to a pro-death penalty group on campus (well they weren't students, but they were visiting my school). They were a highly conservative group that brought up some Bible stories that apparently said that the death penalty was the "Christian thing to do." They referenced Old Testament laws and how Jesus condoned the crucifixion of other criminals when he was being crucified.

Thoughts on this?

I am not a fan of the death penalty.
I can understand incarceration for life for a person that is a danger to society and unredeemable, but death?
I can think of a few cases that I would, from an emotional POV, argue for the death penalty of course.

If the death penalty is the ''Christian thing to do,'' then why do most executions occur in Muslim-, emerging-, and Third World-countries where life is cheap and personal liberties are nil?

As for the death penalty in Western countries, it is usually argued - with reason - that capital punishment isn't a deterrent to crime. Well, it isn't supposed to be a deterrent! Capital punishment is a punishment for certain crimes.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:If the death penalty is the ''Christian thing to do,'' then why do most executions occur in Muslim-, emerging-, and Third World-countries where life is cheap and personal liberties are nil?

Because Christianity is a good few hundred years ahead of Islam?

They were a highly conservative group that brought up some Bible stories that apparently said that the death penalty was the "Christian thing to do." They referenced Old Testament laws and how Jesus condoned the crucifixion of other criminals when he was being crucified.

They referenced Old Testament laws, and said it was the Christian thing to do? I guess that would get back to the same discussion we've been having about how Old Testament laws are even "Christian". This is one issue I've thought a bit about, have heard both sides of the argument, and honestly, really can't decide which side I'm on. I can tell you that I'm definitely not on the side of those who reference the OT, and call it "Christian". This is an issue that I guess I would have to defer to the law of the country that the crime was committed in.

"Christian thing to do."

Those who proclaim it christian, Ivel, kind of remind me of the attitude that the Pharisees had when they wanted to crucify Christ. For them it was the "Jewish" thing to do.

Unless you are talking abut a strict Jewish theocracy...this makes no sense and calling it Christian is as wrong as one can get. I guess Jesus just advocated love, called peter to not to attack the guys coming to get him, rebuked James and John for asking destruction for the unbelieving town, saved the women who was about to be stoned and forgave people who were crucifying him, commanded that love your enemies and forgive those who wronged you, just for fun.

Matt 5:38-39
You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you...
That's a big but there.

People call this Christian only when someone else's head is on the block.

neo-x wrote:

"Christian thing to do."

Those who proclaim it christian, Ivel, kind of remind me of the attitude that the Pharisees had when they wanted to crucify Christ. For them it was the "Jewish" thing to do.

Unless you are talking abut a strict Jewish theocracy...this makes no sense and calling it Christian is as wrong as one can get. I guess Jesus just advocated love, called peter to not to attack the guys coming to get him, rebuked James and John for asking destruction for the unbelieving town, saved the women who was about to be stoned and forgave people who were crucifying him, commanded that love your enemies and forgive those who wronged you, just for fun.

Matt 5:38-39
You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you...
That's a big but there.

People call this Christian only when someone else's head is on the block.

Besides - An eye for an eye really meant that the punishment should never be disproportionate to the crime. Did not say you should actually kill someone. Jesus was saying - an eye for an eye is all very well - but now I offer you grace. Jesus himself poured grace on those who were nailing him to a cross. The death penalty is totally wrong if you are a Christian - only God can dish out that form of judgement. Thou shalt not murder - says the Lord.

Silvertusk.

Let me play devil's advocate. Not saying I agree, just throwing it out there:

Silvertusk wrote:
The death penalty is totally wrong if you are a Christian - only God can dish out that form of judgement. Thou shalt not murder - says the Lord.

Murder is the unjustified killing of another human being. One could argue that the death penalty is justified, therefore it's not murder.

Murder is the unjustified killing of another human being. One could argue that the death penalty is justified, therefore it's not murder.

And how does one justify killing another IF there is an alternative?

PaulSacramento wrote:

Murder is the unjustified killing of another human being. One could argue that the death penalty is justified, therefore it's not murder.

And how does one justify killing another IF there is an alternative?

Where the law says that the penalty for killing someone is the death penalty, then the death penalty could be argued, is justified.

Can we agree that there may be times that killing IS justified? What about these examples:

If someone breaks into my home and threatens my family, and I kill him, was that killing justified? Did I have another alternative besides killing him?

If I'm a soldier at war, and I come upon an enemy charging at me with his knife, do I shoot him, or just hope he misses?

I guess the argument FOR the death penalty could be that there are certain circumstances where killing is not murder.
If a nation or certain state has capital punishment for certain crimes, then at least by law, the death penalty would be justified. If we live in a secular nation, and that nation uses the death penalty...That is a dilemma, isn't it?


Matthew 5:38-39:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Is this really an argument against a secular government instituted death penalty?

An argument against the death penalty: Only God has the authority to take a life. In theocratic Israel, God was the one who instituted the death penalty, so it was justified. There are no theocratic countries instituted by God anymore, so the death penalty is not justified.

That still doesn't end the argument that there may be times that killing IS justified. Like wars, family being threatened, etc.

Like I said before, I've heard both sides of this argument, and I honestly don't know...

When a person is in jail, they are no longer a threat to society, as such society is NOT justified in killing them.
The examples you posted are fine except that in the case of an incarcerated person He/she is no longer a threat.
What the DP becomes then is what it is correctly called, Capital Punishment.
Is punishment a justifiable reason to kill another person?
That is the question IMO.

I disagree with the DP on the simple basis that there is no 100% foul proof method to confirm that a person is guilty AND deserves to die.
I submit that, IMO, even 1 innocent person put to death is 1 person too many.
Especially when we DO have alternatives to protect society.

Proinsias wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:If the death penalty is the ''Christian thing to do,'' then why do most executions occur in Muslim-, emerging-, and Third World-countries where life is cheap and personal liberties are nil?

Because Christianity is a good few hundred years ahead of Islam?

Christianity is ahead of Islam? Are you saying that Christianity is a more evolved faith than Islam? Or, are you saying that the various religions within Christianity are more evolved than the various religions within Islam?

My questions are rhetorical. You need not answer and, frankly, I don't see how you could defend the idea that Christianity is somehow ''ahead'' than Islam.

Even though you are an unbeliever, Proinsias, I am accustomed to intelligent posts by you. What's going on? Has the nursing staff been fiddling with your pills?

FL

FL wrote:
Even though you are an unbeliever, Proinsias, I am accustomed to intelligent posts by you. What's going on? Has the nursing staff been fiddling with your pills?

FL, I don't think it's pills. Maybe a little too much merlot.

There are many examples of God executing people for sinning, examples of sacrifice. Witch burning? Many people have been killed in the name of not only the Christian religion but many other religions as well. The Aztecs I believe have the highest death count for human sacrifice in the name of religion.

Now, is it justified for the human race to decide who lives or dies? I would say if the evidence supports it, yes.


This poses an interesting question:
When it comes to forgiveness from Jesus, does Jesus ask all of the victims of a serial killer if they forgive the killer or does a serial killer only need to ask forgiveness from Jesus to be forgiven to enter Heaven?
What about the victims that got away?
Do the victims that are of another religion go to hell if they believed in God but not in Jesus? Per John 14:6?