Evidence for God from Science

I have a small group that is made up of Christian men from various churches. We do different studies, etc.

Recently, I brought up the question of: "WHY doesn't God reveal himself in more obvious, unmistakable ways?" I thought I'd put it before you guys as well.

By "more obvious and unmistakable ways," I mean, why do you think He doesn't just visually show Himself, or in some powerful and unmistakable ways, like during the Exodus, with a pillar of cloud and of fire? Why doesn't He just occasionally peal back the heavens where the entire world could see Him and audibly hear Him? Why doesn't He send instant miracles of people lame from birth suddenly made to dance in the streets? The blind instantly see? Why not just dazzle us with incredible displays across the skies? Why must everything we see today, ultimately, be believed only by faith - despite how compelling it might be (like DNA, The Big Bang, etc)?

Now, clearly, actually seeing some powerful manifestation of God or of His miracles was never enough for many people. After all the miracles used by God to get them out of Egypt, how long was Moses out of camp before they were polishing up a golden calf? But there were people in Scripture that Jesus said would not have believed without witnessing miracles. And it's hard to believe that people of Jesus' time were any more skeptical than many of our own time.

So WHY do you think God does not reveal Himself more obviously and clearly, as He has in the distant past? I have my ideas, but wanted to throw this out there.

Philip wrote:So WHY do you think God does not reveal Himself more obviously and clearly, as He has in the distant past?

The short answer is that we are in a different dispensation.

You may also want to point out to your study group that even though the Exodus generation saw God's many miracles, they still worshipped the golden calves, they still rebelled against Moses, they were still perverted by sin.

FL

If God revealed himself plainly would it really do any good? Certainly no one would have any doubt that he exists but he wants more from people than a mere acknowledgement of his existence. He wants us to acknowledge the fact that he is our creator and therefore he has the right to rule us.

It is clear from the Bible that someone can be convinced of the truth of God's existence and yet still refuse to submit to his rule.

There is the example of Pharaoh; he continued to rebel in spite of the signs and miracles he observed.

When the people behind the crucifixion of Jesus learned that he had risen from the dead they didn't become his followers but instead tried to cover up the fact of his resurrection.

After Peter and John healed the lame man at the entrance to the temple the leaders couldn't deny that a miracle had taken place but instead of repenting and believing in Jesus they tried to keep anyone from preaching about him.

Revelation describes the judgments that God will send on the earth but the victims of those judgments refused to repent but continued to follow their false gods.

And finally there are Satan and his demons. They have absolutely no doubt about God's existence but they still continue to rebel against him.

Because God is omniscient he knows how each individual will respond to a knowledge of God. In John 7:17 Jesus promised that everyone who is willing to do God's will will learn what that will is. Some might go through a long period of unbelief first but eventually they will come to believe in God.

God judges us on the basis of our knowledge; someone who knows more about God and yet obeys will be punished more severely than someone who does the same thing yet has less knowledge. If he revealed his existence more clearly to those whom he knows will finally reject him he result would be that their final punishment would be more severe.

God takes no pleasure in punishing the wicked. He offers forgiveness to everyone so that he won't have to punish them at all. He gives another gift to those who reject this gift; he conceals himself so that their guilt and therefore their punishment will be less.

If God revealed himself plainly would it really do any good? Certainly no one would have any doubt that he exists but he wants more from people than a mere acknowledgement of his existence. He wants us to acknowledge the fact that he is our creator and therefore he has the right to rule us.

Theophilus, that is exactly why I brought this up. And I expressed to my group the very same idea: As even though God in Christ walked amongst men doing all manner of great miracles, and the Israelites experienced so many mighty miracles freeing them from Egypt, parting the Red Sea, leading them by Pillars of Fire and Cloud, yet many would not have faith and truly follow and submit. So I believe that it is a fallacy that people of today don't know that God actually exists (see Romans 1). And Romans 1 indicates that the knowledge of Himself that He has already given ALL people (of His existence, benevolence and basic qualities) - even those without ever having the Bible or having heard the Gospel - that if such people reject what of Himself He has already shown ALL men, then that in and of itself makes them guilty before Him - that it is rejection of both God and Christ, as you cannot separate them.

So if there is lesser punishment for some, I don't believe that means they can achieve heaven. Perhaps their lesser punishment is still in eternal separation, because, at some level, they still rejected God.

I think FL is correct about different dispensations for different ages.

And so I believe that the reason God doesn't physically or miraculously show Himself is that people already DO know He exists but have suppressed it. And thus, if they are determined to continue in not listening and rejecting what God makes clear to them, that He allows them to believe whatever delusions they so desire to. And so they hide behind a smokescreen that they either DON'T or CAN'T know of His existence - both of which are false.

God has revealed Himself in His power and Glory and not all believed and even those that didn't always obey and lost faith.
God revealed Himself in the flesh in His Son and not all believed and even those that did, didn't always obey and lost faith.
God revealed Himself in His resurrected Son and not all believed and even those that saw and touched didn't always obey and some lost faith.
God reveals Himself in the HS, but not all believe and event hose that do, don't always obey and some lose faith.
God reveals Himself by faith alone, but not all believe and even those that do, don't always obey and some lose faith.

Personally, I see a pattern here...

Philip wrote:I have a small group that is made up of Christian men from various churches. We do different studies, etc.

Recently, I brought up the question of: "WHY doesn't God reveal himself in more obvious, unmistakable ways?" I thought I'd put it before you guys as well.

By "more obvious and unmistakable ways," I mean, why do you think He doesn't just visually show Himself, or in some powerful and unmistakable ways, like during the Exodus, with a pillar of cloud and of fire? Why doesn't He just occasionally peal back the heavens where the entire world could see Him and audibly hear Him? Why doesn't He send instant miracles of people lame from birth suddenly made to dance in the streets? The blind instantly see? Why not just dazzle us with incredible displays across the skies? Why must everything we see today, ultimately, be believed only by faith - despite how compelling it might be (like DNA, The Big Bang, etc)?

Now, clearly, actually seeing some powerful manifestation of God or of His miracles was never enough for many people. After all the miracles used by God to get them out of Egypt, how long was Moses out of camp before they were polishing up a golden calf? But there were people in Scripture that Jesus said would not have believed without witnessing miracles. And it's hard to believe that people of Jesus' time were any more skeptical than many of our own time.

So WHY do you think God does not reveal Himself more obviously and clearly, as He has in the distant past? I have my ideas, but wanted to throw this out there.

If God were to reveal himself like he did in Exodus by a pillar of fire and cloud what make you think anyone would listen to him today as they did not listen to him back then?

Let's see, in America the ACLU would ask God to leave. You know, Separation of Church and State, after all, how dare God land his foot and step upon any State!

Agnostic and atheist would unite demanding God be put on trial for Crimes against Humanity demanding the death sentence (hey didn't something like that already happened way back when). Homosexuals would argue that God does know what true love is and demand he change his ways. Countless millions would go to God and beg that he become their personal genie in a bible.

No, God would avoid all that, and show himself in the silence of the dawn when all creation shouts that, we were all made and designed by an intelligence greater than our own. Groups of Scientist still shout that he didn't make all this, it was an accident. Atheists still desire to put God on trial for crimes against humanity. Millions desire a genie in a bible. The ACLU still seeks to outlaw God. Thousands of militant folks demand God changes his definition of love or else.

I don’t know about you, but there is enough evidence that God exist, just listen to the hubbub. I don’t think much has changed.
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I have learned a lot reading the posts in this thread and if I understand the intents correctly, I believe that in a sense you echo Jesus’s sentiments expressed when refusing to give more signs…

Now two cents form me - in parallel to proposing new spectacular ways of the “plausible” displays of God’s revealing himself, we may work on our perspectives we constantly (and consciously or not) bear on what “is there” about God.
It may seem that there are many happening today, and perspectives from which they belong to the category of absolutely spectacular, obvious, and unmistakable ways of God revealing himself.

Should you consider (Ephesians 6:12), it becomes plain that the show on this planet is about Satan trying to discredit God in any possible way.

From this perspective, God is allowing for and giving us a most spectacular display of proving He is a trustworthy God – by constantly allowing Satan to caricature His (God’s) Image in man. If the current average culture and typical human is to be seriously taken as an “image of God,” what could be more spectacular as a proof that this is a masterfully created fraud?

From this perspective, God is allowing for and giving us a most spectacular display of proving He is a trustworthy God – by constantly allowing Satan to caricature His (God’s) Image in man. If the current average culture and typical human is to be seriously taken as an “image of God,” what could be more spectacular as a proof that this is a masterfully created fraud?

Jurek, elaborate a bit more on this, if you will.

Philip wrote:

If God revealed himself plainly would it really do any good? Certainly no one would have any doubt that he exists but he wants more from people than a mere acknowledgement of his existence. He wants us to acknowledge the fact that he is our creator and therefore he has the right to rule us.

Theophilus, that is exactly why I brought this up. And I expressed to my group the very same idea: As even though God in Christ walked amongst men doing all manner of great miracles, and the Israelites experienced so many mighty miracles freeing them from Egypt, parting the Red Sea, leading them by Pillars of Fire and Cloud, yet many would not have faith and truly follow and submit. So I believe that it is a fallacy that people of today don't know that God actually exists (see Romans 1). And Romans 1 indicates that the knowledge of Himself that He has already given ALL people (of His existence, benevolence and basic qualities) - even those without ever having the Bible or having heard the Gospel - that if such people reject what of Himself He has already shown ALL men, then that in and of itself makes them guilty before Him - that it is rejection of both God and Christ, as you cannot separate them.

So if there is lesser punishment for some, I don't believe that means they can achieve heaven. Perhaps their lesser punishment is still in eternal separation, because, at some level, they still rejected God.

I think FL is correct about different dispensations for different ages.

And so I believe that the reason God doesn't physically or miraculously show Himself is that people already DO know He exists but have suppressed it. And thus, if they are determined to continue in not listening and rejecting what God makes clear to them, that He allows them to believe whatever delusions they so desire to. And so they hide behind a smokescreen that they either DON'T or CAN'T know of His existence - both of which are false.

what has god already shown us

MAGSolo wrote:what has god already shown us

Look around dufus.

jlay wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:what has god already shown us

Look around dufus.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

FL

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

And one will never see if they are deliberately and purposely keeping their eyes tightly shut. As WHY else would they, if not to avoid seeing what they wish not to?

Proinsias' comments in the Advocating Atheism thread may shed some light onto angry atheists like MAGSolo. Understanding that atheists like him may be posting out of hurt & a broken relationship to a former religion makes sense. Of course, MAGSolo's posts remain nonsense but I understand where he's coming from...thanks to Proinsias' insight.
FL

Philip wrote:I have a small group that is made up of Christian men from various churches. We do different studies, etc.

Recently, I brought up the question of: "WHY doesn't God reveal himself in more obvious, unmistakable ways?" I thought I'd put it before you guys as well.

By "more obvious and unmistakable ways," I mean, why do you think He doesn't just visually show Himself, or in some powerful and unmistakable ways, like during the Exodus, with a pillar of cloud and of fire? Why doesn't He just occasionally peal back the heavens where the entire world could see Him and audibly hear Him? Why doesn't He send instant miracles of people lame from birth suddenly made to dance in the streets? The blind instantly see? Why not just dazzle us with incredible displays across the skies? Why must everything we see today, ultimately, be believed only by faith - despite how compelling it might be (like DNA, The Big Bang, etc)?

Now, clearly, actually seeing some powerful manifestation of God or of His miracles was never enough for many people. After all the miracles used by God to get them out of Egypt, how long was Moses out of camp before they were polishing up a golden calf? But there were people in Scripture that Jesus said would not have believed without witnessing miracles. And it's hard to believe that people of Jesus' time were any more skeptical than many of our own time.

So WHY do you think God does not reveal Himself more obviously and clearly, as He has in the distant past? I have my ideas, but wanted to throw this out there.

I do not think we could visually look on God and live in our sinful bodies. However, my brother God will reveal himself to you. If you need God and you seek him, you will be amazed.

I do not think we could visually look on God and live in our sinful bodies. However, my brother God will reveal himself to you. If you need God and you seek him, you will be amazed.

Long ago did, always have been!