Evidence for God from Science

Colossians 3:1-17:

"3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

I just came across something connected to my previous post:

Hebrews 12:4-17:

"4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

I really like verse 17!! Col 3:17 that is...

1over137 wrote: 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

This is a sanctification by works argument that Rick tells me is wrong. What is your position? Do we do our best to be holy or assume we can just sit back in our flesh and let God do all the driving?

Do we perhaps add something to the understanding ourselves by assuming it's an all or nothing proposition and defining each position by its extremes and allowing for no middle ground?

The questions we ask are often framed by our underlying assumptions. Maybe we're not asking the right questions.

Just a thought.

KBCid wrote:

1over137 wrote: 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

This is a sanctification by works argument that Rick tells me is wrong. What is your position? Do we do our best to be holy or assume we can just sit back in our flesh and let God do all the driving?

Why do you think the above speaks about sanctification by works? I do not see it there.

Here is Hebrew 12:14 in NASB:
"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."

Pursue sanctification - sounds like that we have it and we follow it

1over137 wrote:

KBCid wrote:

1over137 wrote: 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

This is a sanctification by works argument that Rick tells me is wrong. What is your position? Do we do our best to be holy or assume we can just sit back in our flesh and let God do all the driving?

Why do you think the above speaks about sanctification by works? I do not see it there.

Hana, of course scripture does not promote sanctification by works. I never said it did. What KBC was saying in another thread was what I saw that he was saying was sanctification, or keeping one's salvation by one's works. Scripture does not promote justification nor sanctification by works. But, KBC also fails to realize that scripture says Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

What scripture says is that anyone who denies Christ has not come in the flesh is a deceiver.

2 John 1:7:
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

1over137 wrote:Here is Hebrew 12:14 in NASB:
"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."

Pursue sanctification - sounds like that we have it and we follow it

Here you have it in Hebrew/Greek/English

http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/12-14.htm

KBC: i do not think that God's driving would leave us sitting back inour flesh.

KBC, the book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew believers. The letter was to tell the Hebrew believers to stop acting like Hebrews. Many of the early Hebrew believers were slipping back into the old way of rites and rituals of Judaism, so they would avoid persecution that believers were encountering. The letter to the Hebrews was an exhortation to continue in the grace of Jesus Christ.

1over137 wrote:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

KBCid wrote:This is a sanctification by works argument that Rick tells me is wrong. What is your position? Do we do our best to be holy or assume we can just sit back in our flesh and let God do all the driving?

1over137 wrote:Why do you think the above speaks about sanctification by works? I do not see it there.

It is here "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy" and "See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God" Who is being directed to make every effort to live in peace and to be holy? and how can one fall short who has already accepted Christ? The idea here is that if God is handling your sanctification because you are incapable of doing any of it yourself then those verses make no sense because I am quite sure God doesn't need any instruction on how to do sanctification. If on the other hand this is a message to the sinners who have turned to Christ then this instruction only makes sense if they have a direct hand in the process and that they can do something wrong.
This is of course my perception of the verses which is why I wanted to ask how you viewed them and see what you interpret them to mean.

1over137 wrote:KBC: i do not think that God's driving would leave us sitting back in our flesh.

That has been my inclination too.

RickD wrote: But, KBC also fails to realize that scripture says Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What scripture says is that anyone who denies Christ has not come in the flesh is a deceiver.
2 John 1:7:Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

I do? this is news to me. I entirely endorse that Christ existed in the flesh and the full Godhead dwelled within him. Its written in as plain an english as one can get;
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

But what does this have to do with asking a question in this thread? Do you have an intent to make me out to be a deciever as I ask questions to try and determine what is correct ? I am not here to teach anyone anything since I don't absolutely know what is right yet but if you want to have a discussion about the trinity POV you are welcome to throw a thread together and we can explore it but, to be honest I haven't research everything about it yet so I can only voice what I have read so far directly from the bible itself and the words of Christ himself state "but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works". Past that point I don't have any outside input into the subject. If my POV is incorrect then that is what I hope to eventually find out. However, at this point in time I am trying to work on a subject that I am researching which is what you have seen me discussing within the other two threads which began with laws and now appears to be coming down to a sanctification issue. So what exactly is your intent?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Do we perhaps add something to the understanding ourselves by assuming it's an all or nothing proposition and defining each position by its extremes and allowing for no middle ground? The questions we ask are often framed by our underlying assumptions. Maybe we're not asking the right questions. Just a thought.

I am quite sure that we all do it just as you say and the eventual truth may indeed lie somewhere inbetween the extremes. The part thats problematic for me at this point is that some understandings are not as clear as I would like and it leaves a sizable amount of interpretation occuring. This is why there are a multitude of Christian faiths and in each of them there are unique interpretations that separate them one from another. There are a number of cases where tiny little details end up being a huge division among the believers which in my mind is not good. we should be one body with one doctrine following one God. So knowing as I go that a part of me may slant my own understanding I am doing my best to use the same approach I use in reverse engineering. I want to test my current tenative position on various subjects and research them backwards until I have the best grasp I can get before deciding what I want to set my foundations on.
I am of course open to any suggestion that may conceivable simplify things. So at any point you have an idea throw it at me, I am certainly not one to reinvent the wheel when there are better options available. It took 40 yrs for Gods gifts within me to open my eyes to him and it has since been an unending revelation at every turn as I try to grasp the biblical message.

KBCid:

Here are again the two important verses:
http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/12-14.htm
http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/12-15.htm

Verse 14 says: pursue sanctification/holiness
Verse 15 says: to watch not to cause bitterness that can cause futhers problems and defile many and to make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God. Here is what grace means:

1. elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion
2. a pleasing or charming quality
3. goodwill or favour
4. the granting of a favour or the manifestation of goodwill, esp by a superior
5. a sense of propriety and consideration for others
6. (plural)
a. affectation of manner (esp in the phrase airs and graces)
b. in (someone's) good graces regarded favourably and with kindness by (someone)
7. mercy; clemency
8. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity
a. the free and unmerited favour of God shown towards man
b. the divine assistance and power given to man in spiritual rebirth and sanctification
c. the condition of being favoured or sanctified by God
d. an unmerited gift, favour, etc., granted by God

What I see in that verse is that when we do not pursue our holiness we may bereave someone of the good. We as holy people are supposed to do good. And if we do not good than we can cause bitterness and further problems that can defile many. For example, take Christians which are bad examples to Christianity. Thanks to them atheists really wonder what is so good on Christianity.

[EDIT: I was just told that the verses are tricky part for interpretation. So I may have been not so right. Will come back to it.]