Evidence for God from Science

No I am not a believer. I am disbeliever, a doubter. I doubt the existence of the biblical God and the divine inspiration of the bible. Now people may ask why Im here if I dont believe these things. Im here to try to understand why you believe them. As a former believer that used to have steadfast faith, these are the sorts of questions that made me start to question that faith. Honestly my crisis of faith has caused me to question the meaning of life itself and honestly I find life pretty meaningless right now, and I never felt that way when I was a believer. I I am not a complete disbeliever because I see plenty of evidence for some type of God but the personal, loving God of the bible simply no longer makes sense to me. I am not a dyed in the wool atheist here just to provoke and harass you. I am here as just a small part of a search for answers, meaning, and purpose but I cannot and will not just accept any half-assed nonsensical answer given because my loss of faith is not something that occurred quickly and with very little thought given.

MAGSolo wrote:No I am not a believer. I am disbeliever, a doubter. I doubt the existence of the biblical God and the divine inspiration of the bible. Now people may ask why Im here if I dont believe these things. Im here to try to understand why you believe them. As a former believer that used to have steadfast faith, these are the sorts of questions that made me start to question that faith. Honestly my crisis of faith has caused me to question the meaning of life itself and honestly I find life pretty meaningless right now, and I never felt that way when I was a believer. I I am not a complete disbeliever because I see plenty of evidence for some type of God but the personal, loving God of the bible simply no longer makes sense to me. I am not a dyed in the wool atheist here just to provoke and harass you. I am here as just a small part of a search for answers, meaning, and purpose but I cannot and will not just accept any half-assed nonsensical answer given because my loss of faith is not something that occurred quickly and with very little thought given.

What exactly would make u believe? Do you need 100% proof? Will you accept good evidence, or do you expect to fully understand the mind of God even though you are a finite being?
Do you fight God every step of the way, or do you bow to The Lord with humility and an open heart and say "I believe lord, help thou my unbelief"?


Faith is a choice, but who are you trying to fool when u claim people's answers on this forum are half assed? Us or yourself?

Look at the answers in any of the threads I have posted. In my thread where I asked why doesnt God perform miracles anymore, Amy says that her son had a broken neck that miraculously healed. I asked if she had evidence to support that and I am told by another poster that that is begging the question and circular questioning. Asking for evidence to support a spectacular claim is begging the question and circular questioning. Thats what I mean when I say half-assed and nonsensical.

MAGSolo wrote:Look at the answers in any of the threads I have posted. In my thread where I asked why doesnt God perform miracles anymore, Amy says that her son had a broken neck that miraculously healed. I asked if she had evidence to support that and I am told by another poster that that is begging the question and circular questioning. Asking for evidence to support a spectacular claim is begging the question and circular questioning. Thats what I mean when I say half-assed and nonsensical.

Miracles by their very nature are beyond any explanation, which is why it is called a miracle, there is no evidence, just the outcome of the event.

If there was evidence then there would be a naturalistic explanation of the occured event thus not making it a miralce.

Miracles are also personal to the person who it happened to or to the people who witnessed it, I have seen many miracles happen to myself and to people I know, do I have any evidence, of course not but I don't need any because I am not trying to convince anyone they happened, they are personal to me and have a small part to play in my faith.

You will not believe in miracles until you let them happen to you, let go and trust God and he will reveal himself to you but first you have to leave your ego at the door.

Dan

MAGSolo, the only person who can answer the question as to why you are here is you.

You're welcome here. That's an honest answer. Your welcome however in the context of your participation on the board is tied to your behavior and respect for the Board's Purpose and our Discussion Guidelines. There are other Atheists and skeptics here as well. Regardless of what you may think about the quality of the answers you are given (which is entirely up to you to decide upon), the tone of your responses and the civility of your answers and questions matter, and quite honestly, they probably matter more than what others may give, because they're coupled with your positions.

That may not seem fair and the issue here really isn't trying to be "fair." It's trying to maintain an online community which admittedly isn't for everybody.

I've been on secular and atheist sites myself in the past as the visitor. I understand when I do that, that I have a higher standard to maintain in terms of my conduct on their board. In some instances in the past, I've been asked to leave because my views or questions are not welcome. In some instances, that might have been deserved because in the past I could be quite bombastic or aggressive in my conversations because I had my own beliefs and agendas.

So, you're going to have to work that out. This is an internet forum which has a purpose and guidelines. We're not a church. We're not the arbiters of truth for everyone but we've chosen to limit participation on our boards to those who are in basic agreement with the premises of the board or who are willing to respect that and converse showing respect for those premises even if there's not agreement. That's true not only of unbelievers but also true for people from particular views or sects within Christianity who are not in agreement with premises and beliefs in the board's purpose. Not everyone wants to do that, and that's fine. There's other boards out there (plenty of them) that exist with no real parameters and have free wheeling debate and people can be (and many are) very rude to one another.

It's one thing to point out circular reasoning. It's another thing, to use your words, to equate people's beliefs as "half-assed" and "nonsensical." Other can manage it.

Might I suggest that rather than asking people to examine your posts and their unquestioned wisdom, that you slow down for a moment and look at some of the skeptics, atheists and non-believers who post here that don't receive a lot of warnings or bans and ask what is different about how they approach things than what you are doing.

That might be a more profitable approach for you.

You may not believe me, but that is up to you. I want you to be able to converse and learn here and I'm not threatened by your beliefs of lack of them. I'm also a moderator here and while that doesn't make me perfect or the final arbiter of truth, it does require me to moderate to maintain the environment that the board's owner and the community as a whole here expects to be maintained so it's a safe place to post and engage. I'm not perfect. I'll be the first to tell you that. My posts or another moderators posts or other participants posts on the board do not represent how others have to think. They have to however take these things into account and maintain civility and respect even for people we disagree with at times.

For my part, I respect you. I don't however always appreciate the tone and approaches you're employing and that is what the issue has been.

Take it or leave it. You've asked an honest question, so I'm giving you an honest answer. I hope it helps. If you wish to private message me to understand things better on the board discussion guidelines, then let me know and I'll do my best to help you with whatever you need to have a better experience here. If the purpose of the board and the discussion guidelines are unacceptable to you, that's fine too. The honorable thing to do if that's the case is move on and if you come to a place in your life later where it seems more palatable then come back then.

bart

MAGSolo wrote:Look at the answers in any of the threads I have posted. In my thread where I asked why doesnt God perform miracles anymore, Amy says that her son had a broken neck that miraculously healed. I asked if she had evidence to support that and I am told by another poster that that is begging the question and circular questioning. Asking for evidence to support a spectacular claim is begging the question and circular questioning. Thats what I mean when I say half-assed and nonsensical.

Mag, the problem I see here is that you want an absolute proof with no faith necessary . Without faith there is no love.
I'm sure that you have someone on this earth that you believe loves you unconditionally. Maybe your parents, a brother etc.
How can you be absolutely sure that this person loves you ?
The answer is there is no way u can be absolutely sure of this, but you have faith that he or she loves you and you don't need to prove this to anyone on earth. This is a personal experience.

But there were times when God worked a miracle in front of a large group of people, such as the miracle of Fatima and others. When the Catholic Church wants to determine if something is a miracle or not they send in skeptical scientists and doctors to rule out all natural explanations for it, but the question u should ask yourself is how much proof would u need before u come to believe. If God came down right now to talk to you, you can still find a reason to not believe .
A perfect example is when I bring up the shroud of turin to skeptics, and when I do they abandon science and reason to stick to their unbelief.

I'm sure you have heard of David Hume right?
He was one of those skeptics who was an extreme doubter and he was loving in a time of Saint Joseph of Cupertino who was seen by whole villages of people floating, flying and levitating, all the while Hume is stating there that there are no such things as miracles. Every time Saint Joseph thought of Jesus while he was praying the miracles would happen. Saint Joseph was so slow that he was thought of as being mentally retarded, but he was humble and had such a simple love for God .
When he and the other monks were walking though the roads saying their prayers they had to literally hold him by his robe so that he didn't float off.

As far as why God doesn't perform miracles more often, there could be many reasons for it. In the Old Testament hundreds of years could pass before God performed big miracles. I bet that if you were alive during the the time that God didn't perform any miracles you would probably have lost your faith.

Maybe the problem isn't with God my friend, maybe you need to look inward to see why u won't hold onto any evidence at all and stop asking God to perform mirAcles at your whim at your time and try to put a little trust and tell God "lord I believe, help thou my unbelief"

MAGSolo wrote:No I am not a believer. I am disbeliever, a doubter. I doubt the existence of the biblical God and the divine inspiration of the bible. Now people may ask why Im here if I dont believe these things. Im here to try to understand why you believe them. As a former believer that used to have steadfast faith, these are the sorts of questions that made me start to question that faith. Honestly my crisis of faith has caused me to question the meaning of life itself and honestly I find life pretty meaningless right now, and I never felt that way when I was a believer. I I am not a complete disbeliever because I see plenty of evidence for some type of God but the personal, loving God of the bible simply no longer makes sense to me. I am not a dyed in the wool atheist here just to provoke and harass you. I am here as just a small part of a search for answers, meaning, and purpose but I cannot and will not just accept any half-assed nonsensical answer given because my loss of faith is not something that occurred quickly and with very little thought given.

I am 28 and for 25 years I was atheist, then 2 years agnostic and now it is one year I am believer. And I did not come to my faith in one day. It took me ten years of honest debates and searching. (And now my faith is based on not only intellectual stuff but on some experience too.) If you do not want to get half-answers you need to change your attitude little bit. For example, you can explain why you are asking certain question because many will not understand why you are asking specific questions. You seem to long for very deep answers and that is good. I am deep digger myself. It takes a lot of work to come to answers.

Well, why loving God of the Bible does not make sense to you? What is not making sense? It is important that what we are learned makes sense.

I also would recommend to choose some few people with whom you would debate deeply. I did this when coming to this forum as atheist. I asked people who would be willing to debate with me privately and one poster raised his hand. We are very good friends now. (My greetings John )

Life has a meaning. Do not give up.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Look at the answers in any of the threads I have posted. In my thread where I asked why doesnt God perform miracles anymore, Amy says that her son had a broken neck that miraculously healed. I asked if she had evidence to support that and I am told by another poster that that is begging the question and circular questioning. Asking for evidence to support a spectacular claim is begging the question and circular questioning. Thats what I mean when I say half-assed and nonsensical.

Miracles by their very nature are beyond any explanation, which is why it is called a miracle, there is no evidence, just the outcome of the event.

If there was evidence then there would be a naturalistic explanation of the occured event thus not making it a miralce.

Miracles are also personal to the person who it happened to or to the people who witnessed it, I have seen many miracles happen to myself and to people I know, do I have any evidence, of course not but I don't need any because I am not trying to convince anyone they happened, they are personal to me and have a small part to play in my faith.

You will not believe in miracles until you let them happen to you, let go and trust God and he will reveal himself to you but first you have to leave your ego at the door.

Dan

No not true at all. I think evidence doesnt mean what you think it means because it does not me there would be a naturalistic explanation of the event. Asking for evidence is not the same thing as asking for an explanation. If you say a miracle occurred and I ask for evidence, Im asking you to show me that the think you said occurred actually occurred. So in the case of amys sons broken neck, she would need to show something that shows her sons neck was broken and then show something that shows it wasnt; something like...I dont know...maybe AN X-RAY !! An x-ray of the broken neck and then an x-ray of the neck not broken would provide evidence of the claim she was making without providing a naturalistic explanation for how it happened. Supporting evidence can be as simple as multiple eyewitnesses corroborating the claim, so the doctors involved could say yes the neck was broken and then somehow it wasnt, but in this case actual x-rays would be better and more convincing.

Mag,

Even if the neck were broken, and then not, how would that in any way convince you that the Bible is true?

MAGSolo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Look at the answers in any of the threads I have posted. In my thread where I asked why doesnt God perform miracles anymore, Amy says that her son had a broken neck that miraculously healed. I asked if she had evidence to support that and I am told by another poster that that is begging the question and circular questioning. Asking for evidence to support a spectacular claim is begging the question and circular questioning. Thats what I mean when I say half-assed and nonsensical.

Miracles by their very nature are beyond any explanation, which is why it is called a miracle, there is no evidence, just the outcome of the event.

If there was evidence then there would be a naturalistic explanation of the occured event thus not making it a miralce.

Miracles are also personal to the person who it happened to or to the people who witnessed it, I have seen many miracles happen to myself and to people I know, do I have any evidence, of course not but I don't need any because I am not trying to convince anyone they happened, they are personal to me and have a small part to play in my faith.

You will not believe in miracles until you let them happen to you, let go and trust God and he will reveal himself to you but first you have to leave your ego at the door.

Dan

No not true at all. I think evidence doesnt mean what you think it means because it does not me there would be a naturalistic explanation of the event. Asking for evidence is not the same thing as asking for an explanation. If you say a miracle occurred and I ask for evidence, Im asking you to show me that the think you said occurred actually occurred. So in the case of amys sons broken neck, she would need to show something that shows her sons neck was broken and then show something that shows it wasnt; something like...I dont know...maybe AN X-RAY !! An x-ray of the broken neck and then an x-ray of the neck not broken would provide evidence of the claim she was making without providing a naturalistic explanation for how it happened. Supporting evidence can be as simple as multiple eyewitnesses corroborating the claim, so the doctors involved could say yes the neck was broken and then somehow it wasnt, but in this case actual x-rays would be better and more convincing.

There are plenty of medical cases out there with good evidence for something miracules and unexplainable happening, you just have to search around the net. But like all evidence one can still deny a miracle and hold a position of "well it must have been something natural but we just don't know what it is", a science of the gaps argument. Like I said before miracles are a personal thing and can be very subjective, you really need to experience them yourself.


Dan

Correlation is not necessarily causation and no amount of "evidence" will convince a person who doesn't wish to believe in something more than the physical universe.

Many unbelievers and skeptics delight in starting conversations like this and then continually moving the goals posts during the conversation itself. The ask for proof of the miraculous and put the burden of proof upon others and then those who undertake their task are met with continual objections and then told that even if a miracle can be established there is no evidence to prove it ties to Christ or the God of the Bible. It's a pretty basic tactic that is pretty sophomoric and predictable.

This is why scripture itself alludes to issues of materialism and skepticism here.

Luke 16: 19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

2 Cor 3:
"15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

I asked people who would be willing to debate with me privately and one poster raised his hand. We are very good friends now. (My greetings John )

greetings

neo-x wrote:

I asked people who would be willing to debate with me privately and one poster raised his hand. We are very good friends now. (My greetings John )

greetings

I was wondering which "John" that was.

I was wondering which "John" that was.