Evidence for God from Science

Hello there,

Firstly I'm very sorry if such a question has been explored before, but as a theistic evolutionist I have recently been thinking about when exactly God deemed us distinct from the apes and classified us as ready to have a soul. Since evolution is such a gradual process it would seem strange that we are 'suddenly' ready for a soul - is it possible there was some divine intervention and we changed in characteristic? What about the Neanderthals, Homo Erectus and the other members of our species, some of which only died out around 10,000 years ago?

Any advice and guidance much appreciated.

Strictly speaking, the moment a living being becomes a live, it is a living soul.

PaulSacramento wrote:Strictly speaking, the moment a living being becomes a live, it is a living soul.

I think he meant the first one.

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Strictly speaking, the moment a living being becomes a live, it is a living soul.

I think he meant the first one.

I think he meant spirit, not soul.

is it possible there was some divine intervention and we changed in characteristic?

If you're going to believe in divine intervention, you might as well just believe in progressive creationism. IMO, PC is all about divine intervention. Whereas TE is about God creating the building blocks, then letting it all happen naturally.

PaulSacramento wrote:Strictly speaking, the moment a living being becomes a live, it is a living soul.

Well, personally I don't think the great apes have souls, and I certainly don't think they go to heaven. When did we change significantly from being apes to being humans that went to heaven, and are thought of by God in the same way you or I are today?

Woody wrote:
is it possible there was some divine intervention and we changed in characteristic?

RickD wrote:
If you're going to believe in divine intervention, you might as well just believe in progressive creationism. IMO, PC is all about divine intervention. Whereas TE is about God creating the building blocks, then letting it all happen naturally

But then when in the 'natural process' did we become distinct from the great apes? I don't think we evolved entirely naturally without any input from God, else we would be simply 'matter' which would leave no room for free will, making everything rather pointless.

Woody, a soul is the part of a creature that consists of a mind, will, and emotions. Plenty of animals are soulish. Dogs, cats, horses. Mammals in general are soulish.

Nephesh refers to creatures with souls. Humans aren't unique because we have souls. Humans have a spirit that allows us to have a relationship with God.

Spirit vs soul. There's a difference, IMO.

RickD wrote:Woody, a soul is the part of a creature that consists of a mind, will, and emotions. Plenty of animals are soulish. Dogs, cats, horses. Mammals in general are soulish.

Nephesh refers to creatures with souls. Humans aren't unique because we have souls. Humans have a spirit that allows us to have a relationship with God.

Spirit vs soul. There's a difference, IMO.

What Ricardo said.

IN the OT it is clear that every living thing has a soul or perhaps better, is a living soul, but I think only humans have a spirit (from God).
Of course the bible doesn't go into specifics about whether they all have the same type of soul or things like that.
IN the NT, would the greek influences, soul and spirit got a bit "mixed up" and "intertwined" at times.

I'm not a theistic evolutionist and your question is one reason I haven't fully embraced the position.

There isn't a clear answer. In the area of creationism (Young Earth and Old Earth Creationism) it's not a question because the creation of man was instant and man became a living soul.

Theistic Evolutionists, in general to my observation (and I've read several and interacted with several) would either profess not to know or they might theorize that when Man reached the point of development to where they were instilled with the image of God (which might be an event or possibly even a process) that God made us unique.

The question is really one of philosophy and world view that arises out of our own thought processes and world views which are primarily western and rooted in Greek Philosophy. Hebrews (in the Old Testament) didn't frame their thinking or questions in the manner as to when something in the spiritual realm specifically happened for the purpose of logical analysis. The Semitic point of view is more dynamic and holistic, meaning that they looked at things overall and accepted what existed as God's will without necessarily having to pull it apart and look at the elements to see how it worked.

All that said, it's something to consider and look at. I'd suggest you examine not only the answers to the question but also ask about what the underlying assumptions to the question itself are.

As I've said, it's a problematic question for me in one sense, but also, because I've examined where the question is coming from, I'm comfortable with recognizing that not everything can be analyzed in this way and to that depth and there are things in the spiritual realm that are more about accepting and embracing than deconstructing and explaining.

RickD wrote:Woody, a soul is the part of a creature that consists of a mind, will, and emotions. Plenty of animals are soulish. Dogs, cats, horses. Mammals in general are soulish.

Nephesh refers to creatures with souls. Humans aren't unique because we have souls. Humans have a spirit that allows us to have a relationship with God.

Spirit vs soul. There's a difference, IMO.

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:Woody, a soul is the part of a creature that consists of a mind, will, and emotions. Plenty of animals are soulish. Dogs, cats, horses. Mammals in general are soulish.

Nephesh refers to creatures with souls. Humans aren't unique because we have souls. Humans have a spirit that allows us to have a relationship with God.

Spirit vs soul. There's a difference, IMO.

What Ricardo said.

IN the OT it is clear that every living thing has a soul or perhaps better, is a living soul, but I think only humans have a spirit (from God).
Of course the bible doesn't go into specifics about whether they all have the same type of soul or things like that.
IN the NT, would the greek influences, soul and spirit got a bit "mixed up" and "intertwined" at times.

Okay, let me rephrase my question then. When during the timeline of evolution did we get 'spirits'? When was that moment, and why was it picked then?

Further, do you two think bacteria have souls? What if we created artificial life, would that have a soul?

Canuckster, thank you for your interesting post. Sometimes yes, I think we just have to accept that 'we just don't know' but having that too often is simply uncomfortable, and I think can weaken faith.

Okay, let me rephrase my question then. When during the timeline of evolution did we get 'spirits'? When was that moment, and why was it picked then?

There are many views on that, but personally I lean towards:
1- When man evolved close enough to be man was we know it, He was given a spirit upon birth, that first man was Adam, the first of the homosapien race.

Further, do you two think bacteria have souls? What if we created artificial life, would that have a soul?

Depends on your definition of soul right?
I don't think that a living being without a consciousness has a soul, no.

When did we change significantly from being apes to being humans that went to heaven, and are thought of by God in the same way you or I are today?

Try NEVER! Scripture refutes any evolutionary scenario that supposedly produced man.

woody wrote:
Okay, let me rephrase my question then. When during the timeline of evolution did we get 'spirits'?

June the 21, 40,232 B.C.

When was that moment, and why was it picked then?

How could it be picked? Evolution doesn't have God intervening, does it? If you're gonna believe in evolution, and scripture, you're just gonna have to go with, "it just happened".

Further, do you two think bacteria have souls?

If bacteria have a mind, will and emotions, then Yes!

All kidding aside, Reasons.org has some info if you're interested:http://www.reasons.org/rtb-101/theisticevolution

Woody, have you checked out http://biologos.org/?
It's a theistic evolution website. I'm sure they've got answers for your questions from a TE pov.

Okay, let me rephrase my question then. When during the timeline of evolution did we get 'spirits'? When was that moment, and why was it picked then?

I know its going to stir the pot, but why assume that the "God breathing life in Adam" was a CPR process, like an actual act? why not take it simple as that the term spirit is simply a term for showing that we are given life from God. In that sense the question you are asking is not required at all. Or even more simply why not assume we always had spirits?

What is a spirit?
The breath of life = spirit? Why?

Woody wrote:Hello there,

Firstly I'm very sorry if such a question has been explored before, but as a theistic evolutionist I have recently been thinking about when exactly God deemed us distinct from the apes and classified us as ready to have a soul. Since evolution is such a gradual process it would seem strange that we are 'suddenly' ready for a soul - is it possible there was some divine intervention and we changed in characteristic? What about the Neanderthals, Homo Erectus and the other members of our species, some of which only died out around 10,000 years ago?

Any advice and guidance much appreciated.

According to Catholic belief (many of whom are theistic evolutionists), there are 3 types of souls: 1) a non-sentient soul such as that of plants, bacteria, etc. 2) a sentient non-rational soul such as that of animals, and 3) a sentient rational soul such as that of humans and which is said to be in the image of God.

Adam and Eve would be the first recipients of a sentient, rational soul. Perfectly compatible with scripture.