Evidence for God from Science

Hey everyone, this has been something that has been on my mind for quite awhile lately when I think about things dealing with eschatology.

Currently as of now ,I mostly lean towards a post trib rapture view or possibly even a no trib rapture view like what Rich Deem holds to. That doesn't mean that I will no longer consider the pretrib rapture view. I'm still very much open to it if I stumble upon more good evidence for it.

And since I'm trying to speak to the pre-trib rapture crowd, I'm not really wanting to convince you all that the view that I hold is true, all I want to stress is for you all to be open to the possibility of these other views being right.

And the reason being, if you all place all your hope in the pre trib rapture view being right and it turns out it's not, you will not only be faced with shock, doubt, and fear about your entire belief system, you will also not be fully prepared to deal with the choice of either taking the "mark of the beast" or taking a guillotine blade across your neck.

I personally think that if more believers have this possible scenario in their mind and know that it could be true, not saying they hope it's true, or even think it's most likely true but just giving weight to the idea that it could be true, will help anyone be less fearful and ready to go through execution if the scenario does take place.

Basically in conclusion, I want to emphasis for all believers no matter what their view of end times and the rapture is, just take a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" approach. It's common sense and really simple.

I mean, everyone takes this approach with all kinds of things like preparing for bad weather or natural disasters by having emergency supplies on hand. Or just like why we have fire extinguishers, or smoke detectors, or insurance.

I say this to you all mainly because I love you guys, I want you all to be with God after your lives are over and I don't want to see you all put in a very bad spot mentally, spiritually and emotionally if the view you hold does not turn out to be right.

Again pre trib, post trib or any view of the end times, they may or may not be right, I don't have God's mind nor am I a paid, degree holding theologian and most of you all that i"m talking to don't either and even if one is a theological expert on eschatology, they still can be wrong on this stuff because of how tedious it all can be.

So again, when it comes to rapture scenarios or any scenario regarding end times events, depending upon how easy, difficult, painful or painless it will be for you, please, have a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst mindset and approach" to it all. Thank you all for your time and God bless.

DRDS wrote:Hey everyone, this has been something that has been on my mind for quite awhile lately when I think about things dealing with eschatology.

Currently as of now ,I mostly lean towards a post trib rapture view or possibly even a no trib rapture view like what Rich Deem holds to. That doesn't mean that I will no longer consider the pretrib rapture view. I'm still very much open to it if I stumble upon more good evidence for it.

And since I'm trying to speak to the pre-trib rapture crowd, I'm not really wanting to convince you all that the view that I hold is true, all I want to stress is for you all to be open to the possibility of these other views being right.

And the reason being, if you all place all your hope in the pre trib rapture view being right and it turns out it's not, you will not only be faced with shock, doubt, and fear about your entire belief system, you will also not be fully prepared to deal with the choice of either taking the "mark of the beast" or taking a guillotine blade across your neck.

I personally think that if more believers have this possible scenario in their mind and know that it could be true, not saying they hope it's true, or even think it's most likely true but just giving weight to the idea that it could be true, will help anyone be less fearful and ready to go through execution if the scenario does take place.

Basically in conclusion, I want to emphasis for all believers no matter what their view of end times and the rapture is, just take a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" approach. It's common sense and really simple.

I mean, everyone takes this approach with all kinds of things like preparing for bad weather or natural disasters by having emergency supplies on hand. Or just like why we have fire extinguishers, or smoke detectors, or insurance.

I say this to you all mainly because I love you guys, I want you all to be with God after your lives are over and I don't want to see you all put in a very bad spot mentally, spiritually and emotionally if the view you hold does not turn out to be right.

Again pre trib, post trib or any view of the end times, they may or may not be right, I don't have God's mind nor am I a paid, degree holding theologian and most of you all that i"m talking to don't either and even if one is a theological expert on eschatology, they still can be wrong on this stuff because of how tedious it all can be.

So again, when it comes to rapture scenarios or any scenario regarding end times events, depending upon how easy, difficult, painful or painless it will be for you, please, have a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst mindset and approach" to it all. Thank you all for your time and God bless.

The most important thing to realize is the Blessed Hope - keeping that before our eyes at all times fore at any time he may suddenly appear during any of his appearing(s) just as He he spoke in Luke 17:22

Luke 17:24 speaks of one his of appearing(s) as a coming in clouds and relates this event to Noah. When was Noah in the Ark of Safety and the door shut - was it before, last moment, or after the flood came?

Now Luke 17:28, 29, 30 speaks of Lot who remained on plain due to his desire and then hid in a cave and notice what verse 30 states about one of Jesus' appearing(s) coming as a physical sign - a revealing. You have two events, each describes two types of believers of two distinct epic time periods - the Noah's and the Lot's. Just an interesting aside.

Next, Luke 17:35, 36, notice the folk mentioned share the same Mill and Field - one taken and one left. What happened to those taken?

Luke 17:37 answers this and Isaiah 26:20, 21 gives you a clue. When did Noah enter the Ark? Isn't God called the unchanging one?

What happened to the those in the same fellowship of Mill and Field who remained? Luke 17:32, 33 helps explain something about this

Guess it comes down what type a believer in Christ desires you and I desire to be - a Noah or a Lot...

Food for thought
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DRDS wrote:Hey everyone, this has been something that has been on my mind for quite awhile lately when I think about things dealing with eschatology.

Currently as of now ,I mostly lean towards a post trib rapture view or possibly even a no trib rapture view like what Rich Deem holds to.

I thought Rich Deem held a pre-wraith view. Here's a quip from an article he wrote on the rapture : "From these studies, one can see that there is a significant difference between the wrath of God (which is judgment directed at the unrighteous) and the tribulation (which is the persecution directed at believers). Throughout the Bible, God is consistent in His treatment of humans. He allows individuals to persecute His people, and rarely interferes with that choice. At the times of the end, God will allow the unrighteous to persecute believers to an extent that "has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall," before ending their reign of terror. God then removes believers from the earth before executing judgment on the unrighteous. The Bible makes it clear that the Church will not suffer the wrath of God." http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/wrath.html

I lean towards the pre-wraith perspective because there's scriptural evidence to support it. I've never found a verse that clearly supports a pre-trib rapture. It always implied, never clearly designated. Regardless, I believe Vernon McGee once said, maybe not verbatim, "I'm not sure when the rapture is coming, but I'm taking the first bus out of here". The rapture of the church is completely biblical, the timing is something we have liberty in, the concept of there being no rapture isn't supported in scripture.

Tetelesti wrote:
I lean towards the pre-wraith perspective

Wraith definition: A ghost.

So, you believe in a pre-Ghost interpretation?

Does that mean we will all be raptured before we turn to ghosts?

Sorry, just having a little fun with your misspelling.

If there is any area of scripture where I am open to idea that what I currently believe is wrong, it would have to eschatology.

The pre-trip rapture view is one of the points of dispensationalism. Sadly, it is also the one most focused on, and the one most distorted.
The criticisms are that the doctrine didn't orignate until the 1800s. Of course this is a fallacy. Most of what we call "doctrines" today all originated long after the early church age.

Some are ardent supporters, and some claim it is a deception. As one who is dispensational, eschatology is one area that I have very little interest. It is unfortunate that most of the people who push a pre-trib rapture don't even really understand dispensational theology at all. And this leads them into a lot of error. For example, I have heard so many PTR's claim (Matthew 24:40) as a proof of a rapture. However, this doesn't fit.
If one follows true dispensational theology then you would also know that Jesus would NEVER mention a rapture. There would be no reason. Jesus' earthly ministry was about covenant Israel, not about the church as formed under the minsitry of Paul. One is prophecy (revealed), the other mystery (secret). So, who is "left behind" in these verses. Jesus compares it to Noah's flood. Who was taken and who was left behind in Noah's flood. The wicked were taken and the righteous left behind. But, this is the exact opposite of what many PTR proponents, such as Lahaye,, teach. Those verses are in fact regarding a judgment that is to come on the Earth. So, if you hear someone trying to support a PTR with these verses, they are not following true dispensational theology. They are in error on a foundational principle and you can reject their teaching. Does that mean that there won't be a rapture? No. Those verses have been misused to paint some picture of what the rapture will be, and many are going to have a hard time getting that imagery out of their head.
The opposing views are equally flawed because most are not handling the scripture correctly. They make no distinctions about what Paul says from what Jesus taught and what John wrote in Revelation. They just throw everything into one pot, stir, and then apply.

RickD wrote:

Tetelesti wrote:
I lean towards the pre-wraith perspective

Wraith definition: A ghost.

So, you believe in a pre-Ghost interpretation?

Does that mean we will all be raptured before we turn to ghosts?

Sorry, just having a little fun with your misspelling.

Oh geez...in my defense I attended California public schools.
And to answer your question, yes I believe I will be raptured before I turn into a ghost and no I don't believe in the pre-zombie position or the coming zombie apocalypse.

Yeah here is a more detailed description of what Rich Deem believes regarding the tribulation. Again, he's certainly not a pre trib rapture believer.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/tribulation.html

DRDS wrote:Yeah here is a more detailed description of what Rich Deem believes regarding the tribulation. Again, he's certainly not a pre trib rapture believer.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/tribulation.html

Sorry I guess I don't understand what you mean by a "no trib" rapture position?

As far as I can tell Rich Deem holds a pre-wrath position, but I don't want to state this dogmatically because I never read were he actually does.

The opposing views are equally flawed because most are not handling the scripture correctly. They make no distinctions about what Paul says from what Jesus taught and what John wrote in Revelation. They just throw everything into one pot, stir, and then apply.

Absolutely! Each view hinges upon some unknowable things - meaning they are purely speculative. Theologians just love to systemically place things into one comprehensive and neatly understandable package. But without knowing key things for certain, this is totally impossible. Yet that never deters the writers of countless books. I'm willing to bet that the reality will be that there are many mistakes in most common end-times views.

Here's some thoughtful questions and observations as to why ALL cheat when it comes to Eschatology:
http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible ... rs-part-1/

and

http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible ... chatology/

We just ALL need to be ready for the Lord's return!

Philip wrote:

The opposing views are equally flawed because most are not handling the scripture correctly. They make no distinctions about what Paul says from what Jesus taught and what John wrote in Revelation. They just throw everything into one pot, stir, and then apply.

Absolutely! Each view hinges upon some unknowable things - meaning they are purely speculative. Theologians just love to systemically place things into one comprehensive and neatly understandable package. But without knowing key things for certain, this is totally impossible. Yet that never deters the writers of countless books. I'm willing to bet that the reality will be that there are many mistakes in most common end-times views.

There is only one aspect of the rapture that I would be dogmatic. Being that the rapture will only take place after anti-christ is revealed. The following verse also points to the rapture and the Day of the Lord as being the same event. This is the only passage I know that actually gives you an indication of when it will occur.

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."