Evidence for God from Science

Searching the forum, I saw that there were no discussions about whether or not the American Revolution was in accordance with Romans 13. I think that it is important to discuss this subject as the questioning of our own governments validity and integrity is on the rise.

To begin the discussion, I would like to mention the scripture itself:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Here are a few questions/statements to think on this verse:

- God can use both good and evil for his will to be completed.

- God's servants are those who are of his family (believers) you, and me are his servants. However, according to this verse; Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and other figures of authority who have committed terrible acts of evil against humanity are classified as God's Servants too. Is this a fair interpretation?

- The Bible displays the apostles practicing civil disobedience (Acts 4:19; 5:29), (Exodus 1:15-17), (Daniel 6:10) (Daniel 3:14-18).

- Assuming the American Revolution was a sinful act, this would indicate that men usurped God's chosen "servant's" that he designated to rule over the people with their own form of government. Or was this merely God's process of choosing new "servants"?

- The fore fathers of the USA thought that what they were doing was in accordance with scripture, mainly because they were fighting against tyranny, rather than being rebels to government and promoting anarchy. They believed that the King was the one who was vehemently violating scripture and that no man who did such a thing could be considered God's servant. Is this logic rationale in accordance with scripture or defiance of it?

Alpha~Omega wrote:Searching the forum, I saw that there were no discussions about whether or not the American Revolution was in accordance with Romans 13. I think that it is important to discuss this subject as the questioning of our own governments validity and integrity is on the rise.

To begin the discussion, I would like to mention the scripture itself:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Here are a few questions/statements to think on this verse:

- God can use both good and evil for his will to be completed.

- God's servants are those who are of his family (believers) you, and me are his servants. However, according to this verse; Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and other figures of authority who have committed terrible acts of evil against humanity are classified as God's Servants too. Is this a fair interpretation?

- The Bible displays the apostles practicing civil disobedience (Acts 4:19; 5:29), (Exodus 1:15-17), (Daniel 6:10) (Daniel 3:14-18).

- Assuming the American Revolution was a sinful act, this would indicate that men usurped God's chosen "servant's" that he designated to rule over the people with their own form of government. Or was this merely God's process of choosing new "servants"?

- The fore fathers of the USA thought that what they were doing was in accordance with scripture, mainly because they were fighting against tyranny, rather than being rebels to government and promoting anarchy. They believed that the King was the one who was vehemently violating scripture and that no man who did such a thing could be considered God's servant. Is this logic rationale in accordance with scripture or defiance of it?

If one takes Romans 13 to the extreme, then we cannot defend ourselves from foreign invasion either as it disrespects a hostile enslaving governmental system...

The Founders pondered this question and came to terms with it. Sometimes it is necessary to throw off the yoke of Tyranny. If Romans 13 is to be taken to the extreme, then the children of Israel could not have left Egypt and God violated his own principles to honor Government at all cost. The Key is Tyranny of oppressive rule that insults the nature of the rule of Grace.

King George's yoke had to be removed as it insulted Grace for the People. Likewise, we have that same right today. God usually uses people to bring down nations that insult him and his principle of Grace. How has the current admin insulted God so far? Think hard on this...
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King George's yoke had to be removed as it insulted Grace for the People. Likewise, we have that same right today. God usually uses people to bring down nations that insult him and his principle of Grace. How has the current admin insulted God so far? Think hard on this...

I am not implying that the current president has insulted God, if thats what you mean. I am saying that there is talk of the governments validity as whole.

In WWII, Christian's hid Jewish refugees in there home's attics. If the police came by, asking if they were harboring any Jewish people, the Christian's lied and said they were not. God places a higher value of human life then he does on the legalistic following of law. Is this similar situation in the sense that legalism could get in the way?

Btw, i finished reading ur book about 2 months ago. Good stuff m8, thanks alot for sharing.

Tough question and one I've wrestled with.

I wonder what kind of reaction we'd get today if a legit revolution started over taxation. The oppression of the British was mainly through taxation.
There were several issues that built up to the war. Quartering Act, Stamp act, Sugar Act, Tea Act, Boston Massacre, Boston Tea Party.

By the time of the Boston Tea Party many colonists did not see themselves as British citizens, but victims of extortion by the British to pay for their mounting debt. Colonies had been essentially governing themselves for years.

FWIW, our founding documents are the only ones I know of which allow for secession and uprising if the government should become oppressive.

Here is a quote from a blog - Sword and Trowel - that goes into this in more details. It explains the social contract between the people and Government and what happens when Government breaks that contract from the writings and thoughts of that era. Also, John Adams, who began a national day of prayer and fasting for the nation and his writings on that are illuminating as well. See link at the end of page...

Hope this helps

The Declaration takes great pains to list the many abuses of power that the king had done. It was because of these abuses that the king had given up his right to be a lawful authority for the colonialists. Because the king no longer could be considered a lawful authority, the colonialists were not in violation of Romans 13 but instead were being obedient to it. They were one government checking the others encroachment. The founders never said they were in rebellion and in fact when out of the way to prove otherwise.

Walking through various theological and philosophical documents, this paper has shown that the American Revolution was not really a new understanding nor an ignorance of Romans 13. The founding fathers were not in violation of Romans 13 but instead had went to great pains to show that they were not in violation. They understood that government was given to men for man’s benefit. They understood that Romans 13 calls for Christians to be obedient to lawful rulers who complete the purpose that God had given government. They did not see a blind commitment to follow ever person who would claim authority but only to those authorities which were lawfully in place. The American Revolution was not a resistance of a lawful government but instead a defense against an unlawful person or persons claiming authority that it no longer had over them.

Quote from - Sword and Trowel

John Adams Link to Document on Prayers and fasting day
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First, lets make it clear that Romans was NOT written to US or anyone else other than the Christian congregations in Rome.
That we can get so much out of the theology in Romans doesn't change that Paul did NOT have in mind any other government than the Roman Empire.
One that he was a citizen off, with all applicable rights.
Let us look at Romans 13:

13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Since this is a thread about governments, lets focus on that part:

13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Paul was making a few statements here, the prime one was to NOT rebel against Roman leadership ( the Roman Empire) and Paul knew VERY WELL what rebellion would mean - total destruction of the rebels and of Roman Christian congregations.
It was the same warning that Christ gave the Jews, which they failed to heed resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Paul states that they must be subject because of wraith ( that of the Romans) and because of the sake of their conscience ( that they are doing nothing to cause pain to fellow beleivers in the Roman Empire).
Paul's comment on Taxes echos Christ's AND makes me think that Paul was responding to specific questions from the congregation(s) about how to deal with these matters.

So Paul, are you saying that Romans 13 was only directed at the Jews and Christians under Roman rule at that time? If that's so, it would seem that a lot of people misinterpret Romans 13, and I think that it'd be very hard to tell people that Romans 13 only implies to the Christians and Jews of the new testament era, when so many people obviously think otherwise.

Alpha~Omega wrote:So Paul, are you saying that Romans 13 was only directed at the Jews and Christians under Roman rule at that time? If that's so, it would seem that a lot of people misinterpret Romans 13, and I think that it'd be very hard to tell people that Romans 13 only implies to the Christians and Jews of the new testament era, when so many people obviously think otherwise.

I am saying that the various books and letter of the bible were written FOR us BIT NOT TO us, and that is something that we must take into account when interpreting texts to suit our needs.
Paul is quite clear that his letter was directed to the congregation in Rome.
The issue is HOW do we take that and apply it to US.
First we must understand WHY Paul was addressing this issue and How he addressed it, then we have to understand that in light of what Jesus taught and why.
The life of Jews and Christians-to-be in those days under the Pax Roman and total control of the Roman empire was very different than our is right now.
The issue of paying tax was a major one and just as Jesus dealt with it, so did Paul.
It was important for the people to understand what rebellion meant and many didn't understand that- case in point the Jewish rebellion crushed by Titus.
Paul understood that ANY move to disrupt the social status quo in an open and rebellious way ( which not paying taxes would be) would be the end for the newly forming Christian faith.
Paul stated that only those that do evil have anything to fear from the state and of course he was right ( and as any oppressed would tell you, he was wrong as well).
IN Paul's view, it seems ( and since we don't know what was in Paul's mind we can only speculate) that since God was sovereign, then if a government exists it was because God has some sort of purpose for it.
Was he right?
IMO, yes and no.
Yes, God does use the governments in power to make His will known but NO, God doesn't put any government in power ( that would suggest coercion on God's part and the direct violation of free will).
God allows a government to exist so as to show humans the folly of "man ruling man".

Jesus never confused the Kingdom of God with the Kingdoms of men.

Neither should we. America, as much as I love it and glad to be a part of it, isn't the replacement for the nation of Israel as God's chosen nation. It has good and bad and wrong and right. The Roman Empire at the time of Jesus' public ministry had good and bad as well. Jesus didn't come to institute moral reform. He came to institute the Kingdom of God. The better we understand that and differentiate between the two, the easier in my experience it becomes to deal with issues such as this.

As much as we can be at peace with the civil governments and systems in which we find ourselves and which believers throughout history have found themselves, we should be at peace and render to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesars whatever form "Caesar" might take.