Evidence for God from Science

Is a biblical unitarian a Christian? Why or why not? I know some may point to the "deviation" of mainstream Christianity, such as calling that person a cultist or heretic. As I understand, Jesus was a unitary monotheistic Jew and believed in the one God of Israel Mark 12:29. I also very well know that most scrips for support of the deity of Jesus most will go to the Gospel of John, why not Matt, Mark, or Luke?

1stjohn0666 wrote:Is a biblical unitarian a Christian? Why or why not? I know some may point to the "deviation" of mainstream Christianity, such as calling that person a cultist or heretic. As I understand, Jesus was a unitary monotheistic Jew and believed in the one God of Israel Mark 12:29. I also very well know that most scrips for support of the deity of Jesus most will go to the Gospel of John, why not Matt, Mark, or Luke?

Depends on the unitarian - most by and large majority support heretical doctrines concerning Jesus and God's nature by reducing the incomprehensible God to a comprehensible state of oneness that lessens who and what Jesus is and his work on the Cross and Resurrection.

Deut 4:35, 39 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him... 39 Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. NKJV

Isa 45:5, I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me...

Isa 43:10-11, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. NKJV

Isa 45:21-25 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. :23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' " NKJV

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Rev 1:17-18 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. NASB

Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." NASB

Matthew 1:22-22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Mark 2:5-7 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" see Isa 43:25 - Micah 7:18

Note Luke 5:21 too ---- Note also It was the Unitarians who accused Jesus of blaspheme for forgiving sins for such a thing only God can do. They still teach Jesus was just only a mere mortal man and thus still must twist their doctrines to avoid the charge of Blaspheme or keep it ongoing using much useless verbosity.

Unitarians - by a large majority support heretical doctrines concerning Jesus and God's nature by reducing the incomprehensible God to a comprehensible state of oneness that lessens who and what Jesus is and his work on the Cross and Resurrection. It is there unitarians are lead astray.

The vast majority would not be classed as Christian due to the denial of who Jesus needs to be in order to save... they trust in another Jesus that the apostle Paul warns believers not to follow after - Galatians 1:7, 8

The only Unitarians that could be classed as Christian are the Oneness Pentecostals because they do not deny the deity of Christ, yet, hold a distorted view of God’s oneness that would class them more as an aberrant form of Christianity, yet still brothers and sisters in Christ. Other than that, I know no unitiarians that meet this criteria.
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Thanks,
In all of the scriptures you provided, there is no trinity. I knew I would get the word "heretic" or cultist of which you provided heretical.

I have never been a fan of "true christian" discussions.
I think it is important to establish what one believes makes a person a Christian first.
If "all" it takes is accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour then ANYONE that does that is a Christian.
Generally, a Christian of the 1st century was a person that accepted that Jesus was the Christ, that he lived and died and was resurrected and would come again, that He was the Son of God.
That was it in a "nutshell".
When a person accepted that and believed it and proclaimed it, He/She would be sealed by the HS, would be anointed by the HS and become an "anointed one" IE: A Christian.
As the generations passed and many issues were raised ( gnosticisim for example) more detailed reasoning and explanations about Jesus and His nature and relation to The Father was needed.
Some of these arguments were made to answer issues from gentiles, others from Jews, soem from the pagan religions of the time and others from the OT itself.
Many issues were raised because of personal interpretations of things ( Like Marcion) and differences in understandings.

1stjohn wrote:
Is a biblical unitarian a Christian?

A saved Christian? No. A nominal Christian? Yes.

Why or why not?

Because Biblical Unitarians believe in a different Jesus. A Jesus who is not God, cannot save anyone from their sins. And, anyone who denies that Jesus is God, is speaking by a spirit besides the Holy Spirit.(see the 1 John verse below)

As I understand, Jesus was a unitary monotheistic Jew and believed in the one God of Israel Mark 12:29.

Jesus is also God.

I also very well know that most scrips for support of the deity of Jesus most will go to the Gospel of John, why not Matt, Mark, or Luke?

Here, from Matthew that supports the deity of Christ. Matthew 1:23:

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [a]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”

Matthew 4:7:

7 Jesus said to him, “[a]On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Jesus Himself was claiming to be God.

From Luke. Luke 1:68:

“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people

The book of John is used more often to talk about the deity of Jesus, because the book of John makes Jesus' deity so obvious.

1stjohn, If Jesus was only a man, and not God in the flesh, then why does 1 John 4:2 say:

2 By this you know the Spirit of God : every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God

If Jesus is merely a man, and not God in the flesh, then this verse is redundant.

Won't you believe on the true Jesus Christ, John? He is the only one who can save you from your sins.

The OT prophechies aimed at Christ can only make sense if Christ has the same nature as God OR Jews were to believe in more than ONE supreme God.
Jesus is called Might God and Everlasting Father in Isaiah, God with Us as per Matthew, Paul states that He is the exact form of God, the same nature as God, John states that the WORD is God and identifies the WORD as Christ, Thomas calles the resurrected Christ God directly.

The only thing that needs to be asked is WHY is it so hard to believe that Christ and His/Our Father share the same nature of being God ?
What must be asked is what makes that view so hard to grasp and agree with?

Last I checked, while I have issues with many forms of what is being classified here as "unitarianism", being a Christian isn't defined primarily by how we understand key elements of doctrine. As important as we might believe that to be, becoming focused on that would in effect leave us as practical gnostics.

I believe that the Trinity is an essential element of understanding in terms of the identity of Jesus Christ. I also know however, that the doctrine of the Trinity, wasn't primary in Jesus' ministry. He simply proclaimed Himself to be who He is (by multiple titles) by using titles such as Son of God, Son of Man, and God revealed as well who Jesus is by events in the Gospels such as Christ's baptism, the transfiguration, the resurrection, the ascension and then too affirming this through Pentecost.

Jesus didn't stop with the thief beside Him while on the cross to provide him with a tract, or a primer in basic theology. He simply responded to and affirmed the faith of the man by accepting his statement of belief in Himself and measure by who He was (is) rather than the extent of the man's understanding at the time.

So, I agree with Paul, that the whole "real Christian" direction that many of these conversations take is to me rooted in a wrong premise to begin with. I don't presume to be the judge of another person's salvation. That is the realm of God and God only. I don't presume either for my understanding, which is constantly changing and updating, to be the measure of my own salvation either for that matter.

Objectively Christ and His finished work were completed on my behalf before the foundation of the world. Subjectively, it become real to me when I heard and received the Gospel message. Often we get confused and wrapped around the axle of these issues when we miss that Scripture speaks of both elements and we mix metaphors as it were, and try to make one more important than the other. There is mystery in the person of God. While I believe the Trinity, wholeheartedly and embrace it as evidenced in Scripture and witnessed to my spirit by the Holy Spirit, aka the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God, it's not my business to police everyone else.

Heresy is a difficult word to apply because it's relative in some regard. I'm quite sure that when all is revealed to me in Christ in the future, that I will find quite a few things that I have gotten wrong. The measure of my faith however is in the end, not the quality of what I have believed and how I have believed it, but rather the object of my faith and the person upon whom I have staked my life and my future.

So, while I believe it does matter, and it's an important discussion to have, and there is such a thing as heresy, in the end I am not interested in having "pissing" wars with anyone about how right my concepts and frameworks of understanding are compared to others, and that to some measure even includes some of those elements and positions that through Church history have come to be known as "heresies" or that have defined major branches of what has become the religion of Christendom. If there isn't something deeper and more personal than that, no amount of right thinking is going to save me. Either Christ is who He claims to be or I am without hope and no amount of faith on my part is going to make up for an unworthy object in which I place my faith. What is more, if what I place my faith in isn't true from the foundations of this world it will not become anymore effective by my sincerity and depth of belief increasing.

I find most of that encompassed in Ephesians 1:1-14.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Many read this and see it in different perspectives and that forms the basis of how they define their belief. We argue it a Calvinists or Arminians. We argue it as who are true Christians and who are false ones. I think when we do that we miss much of the point and we make it about us rather than about Christ.

In any event, to address the last part of a comment above, the Gospel of John is different in many ways than the first 3 Gospels or synoptics as they are commonly referred to, because they are different in form. The synoptics are more narrative history and John is more theological discourse and application. Because they are different basic forms and approaches doesn't mean we are to discount, one or the other. If we accept the basic inspiration of Scripture then we are to accept all of it and we're to apply it to our lives and understanding and not attempt to make it fit into the systematic theologies and structures we attempt to force it into. It's important to look at. There is such a thing as heresy and false teaching. Humility requires that we be gracious to others and ourselves too to avoid the arrogance or pride that we're the measure of truth instead of truth being the measure of us.

That's why I mostly avoid many of these conversations in depth anymore. Not because they're not important in some measure or because we shouldn't be moving toward better understandings. In the end, if there's not a personal God in the person of Jesus then my faith is in the end in vain and I've chased around this mulberry bush enough to know when I'm running in circles.

1stjohn0666 wrote:Thanks,
In all of the scriptures you provided, there is no trinity. I knew I would get the word "heretic" or cultist of which you provided heretical.

There is something that the unitarians of Jesus’ day on earth knew to their credit is something that the unitarians of this age fail to recognize: only God himself can forgive all past, present, and future sins to such a degree that erases all the debt one owes for those sins.

We as mortal beings can only forgive on a limited scope that involves those immediate transgressions we commit and those others have committed to us. We cannot forgive anyone of all their past, present, and future sins – casting these into the sea of forgetfulness. We cannot erase the debt transgressors owe God for their sins, either. Our forgiveness is limited in scope and kind while God’s is eternal and forever.

When Jesus in Mark 2:5-7 said: And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven," and then in Mark 2:6 the Unitarians responded: “But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

They recognized that for the paralytic to walk, he had to be released from the sin debt he owed for his transgression against God and humanity. To forgive in this degree, to walk again, as this man did, also clearly demonstrated that all the paralytic’s past, present, and future sins were erased against him by none other than God himself. It was due to this, why the unitarians accused Jesus of blaspheme because only God can forgive sins to the degree that released a man to become whole again.

The same is true is today. Whom one places their faith in is important in order to be forgiven. The Apostles wrote of false jesus’ as well as those whom seek to bewitch others into accepting a false Christ whom cannot forgive all past, present, and future sins that erases the sin debt one owes God due to false jesus' being only a mere mortal man. No Mortal being can release the sin debt or forgive one of all past, present, and future sins.

Mortal humanity can only forgive in a limited degree those immediate transgressions of others committed against oneselves. We, as mortal beings cannot forgive all past, present, and future sins of a transgressor that erases the transgressors sin debt. That is reserved only to God himself. Only God himself is such a Savior, just as the bible cries out in Isaiah 45:21. 22.

And Jesus answered…

Mark 2:8 -12 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"—He said to the paralytic, 11 "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, "We never saw anything like this!" NKJV

The Preincarnate Jesus spoke of himself in the Old Testament in Isaiah 45:23, 24, 25 and Paul wrote of in Philippians 2:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11…as the real Jesus

This is the one spoken of as the Arm of the Lord in Isaiah 53:1-12 and in Isaiah 63:5, Isaiah 52:10, Isaiah 51:5, Jeremiah 32:17. Who is none other than the LORD in human flesh, to reconcile the breech broken between God and Man by Man. It is a great mystery, Jesus was both 100 percent God and 100 percent Man, the Word became flesh as John 1:1, 2, 3, 14c states.

It is extremely important in whom you trust to forgive you of all your sins, past, present, and future, who alone eases all the debt of sin you owe. Only God can do this work – not a mere mortal man alone.

So 1stjohnny – there are many mortal fleshly jesus’ out there men preach on who are mortal in nature and kind and such jesus’ as that cannot forgive and release you from debt of Sin owed to God. That kind of forgiveness can only come from God himself as it is written in Isaiah 43:10, 11.

You need to come to the real Christ, not the one the JW’s and the The Way International splinter groups teach on, you so readily believe.

That choice is before you and only you can make the right one...
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1stjohn,

If you're open, this seems to have gotten great reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/082542983 ... 1_1&sr=8-1

There are many Christians who believe in God, believe that Jesus is His son, was crucified and arose, but they do not believe Jesus was also God yet also in the flesh. I would think if one believed such as this, that at least logically, they would have to assume that Jesus was a created being, perhaps adopted as a son, made extraordinary, perfect and holy, and then given great power and other God-like attributes.

But here's the thing one might consider: IF Jesus is not truly God and is a created but a uniquely exalted and made-holy being (by God the Father), then it sure makes His sacrifice and gruesome death on the cross, though certainly miraculous due to His resurrection and God the Father's loving provision, FAR less glorious and extraordinarily impressive. Why? Because the enormous cost, sacrifice and experience of unfathomably hideous brutality would not have been born by God Himself, but by the proxy of a created being outside of Himself. And IF God Himself wasn't on that cross, then He, though certainly experiencing great anguish at watching His son die, it would have only been a vicarious suffering.

And so the fact that GOD Himself (in the form of Jesus), PERSONALLY experienced the anguish and agony of the Cross, that God Himself is PERSONALLY acquainted with and knows all about the enormous suffering, grief and sorrows and difficulties common to men - certainly, physically, and far beyond what most will ever come close to, is something that is so loving, so incredible and awesome, that I daily struggle to wrap my mind around it. That the God Who built the universe Selflessly and humbly died for my countless shortcomings and sins is something I can scarcely comprehend. The cost was enormous and the Love driving it is ... well, there just are no words. God takes love extremely seriously - and He is the Ultimate Model of it!

It is also important to note that if Christ was not God ( in nature) then when he says this:
John 15:13
13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Christ lays down His life for Us, many men had done so through the ages and if God had not done so, then All those that had would have a greater love than God.

When Christ suffered and died, His Father suffered along with Him, every lash, every hit, ever cut, every drop of blood, every sensation of pain that Christ felt, His Father felt too.
God experienced death in the only way the GOD could, in the flesh, in His Son.

If Christ did all that and God did not, then Christ is greater than God.

So true, Paul!

And although it has it's problems and some subliminal Catholic insertions, Mel Gibson's "Passion" is something so horrible that I could only bring myself to watch it once. And for all of his failings, Mel did Christians a great service by making that film. Reading and imagining what Jesus went through is hard enough - to see it visually displayed is incredibly and horribly powerful!

As someone that has seen up close the true effects of whippings and scourgings I can tell you that Mel was a lot closer to reality then fiction in that regard.
The crucifixion process was not nice and neat and was far more painful and bloody than was ever depicted in any film before Mels.
That Christ kept his markings after His resurrection means far more than many think.

Philip wrote:...And so the fact that GOD Himself (in the form of Jesus), PERSONALLY experienced the anguish and agony of the Cross, that God Himself is PERSONALLY acquainted with and knows all about the enormous suffering, grief and sorrows and difficulties common to men - certainly, physically, and far beyond what most will ever come close to, is something that is so loving, so incredible and awesome, that I daily struggle to wrap my mind around it. That the God Who built the universe Selflessly and humbly died for my countless shortcomings and sins is something I can scarcely comprehend. The cost was enormous and the Love driving it is ... well, there just are no words. God takes love extremely seriously - and He is the Ultimate Model of it!

This is the crux of this discussion and you summed it up superbly!

That is the meaning of 1 John 4:10, What is love? It is not that we loved God. It is that he loved us and sent his Son to give his life to pay for our sins. NIrV

Made more powerful by the fact who Jesus is, more than a mere mortal man but also God manifest in human flesh... That God would do that for haters and rebels and deniers of God to reconcile. With a love like that proven to you, how can one continue to deny God? The he sends forth the Holy Spirit to seal the deal... a love like that one daily struggles as Phil said - just to wrap (our) minds around it.

On one of my radio broadcast, I shared this point: when we limit the ransom price (Jesus Paid) only based on pure legal terms alone, we miss the full impact ... of this ransom...

Thank you Philip for pointing out one of the missing elements of the ransom price Matthew 20:28

Hence, now, no one can say to God - you do not know what it is like to be born in this crazy mixed up world and experience (taste) death. Jeremiah 32:27, "I am the LORD. I am the God of all people. Is anything too hard for me?" NIrV

He sent a son to man so we can be adopted as sons/daughters of God: profound indeed!
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B. W. wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:Thanks,
In all of the scriptures you provided, there is no trinity. I knew I would get the word "heretic" or cultist of which you provided heretical.

There is something that the unitarians of Jesus’ day on earth knew to their credit is something that the unitarians of this age fail to recognize: only God himself can forgive all past, present, and future sins to such a degree that erases all the debt one owes for those sins.

We as mortal beings can only forgive on a limited scope that involves those immediate transgressions we commit and those others have committed to us. We cannot forgive anyone of all their past, present, and future sins – casting these into the sea of forgetfulness. We cannot erase the debt transgressors owe God for their sins, either. Our forgiveness is limited in scope and kind while God’s is eternal and forever.

When Jesus in Mark 2:5-7 said: And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven," and then in Mark 2:6 the Unitarians responded: “But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

They recognized that for the paralytic to walk, he had to be released from the sin debt he owed for his transgression against God and humanity. To forgive in this degree, to walk again, as this man did, also clearly demonstrated that all the paralytic’s past, present, and future sins were erased against him by none other than God himself. It was due to this, why the unitarians accused Jesus of blaspheme because only God can forgive sins to the degree that released a man to become whole again.

The same is true is today. Whom one places their faith in is important in order to be forgiven. The Apostles wrote of false jesus’ as well as those whom seek to bewitch others into accepting a false Christ whom cannot forgive all past, present, and future sins that erases the sin debt one owes God due to false jesus' being only a mere mortal man. No Mortal being can release the sin debt or forgive one of all past, present, and future sins.

Mortal humanity can only forgive in a limited degree those immediate transgressions of others committed against oneselves. We, as mortal beings cannot forgive all past, present, and future sins of a transgressor that erases the transgressors sin debt. That is reserved only to God himself. Only God himself is such a Savior, just as the bible cries out in Isaiah 45:21. 22.

And Jesus answered…

Mark 2:8 -12 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"—He said to the paralytic, 11 "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, "We never saw anything like this!" NKJV

The Preincarnate Jesus spoke of himself in the Old Testament in Isaiah 45:23, 24, 25 and Paul wrote of in Philippians 2:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11…as the real Jesus

This is the one spoken of as the Arm of the Lord in Isaiah 53:1-12 and in Isaiah 63:5, Isaiah 52:10, Isaiah 51:5, Jeremiah 32:17. Who is none other than the LORD in human flesh, to reconcile the breech broken between God and Man by Man. It is a great mystery, Jesus was both 100 percent God and 100 percent Man, the Word became flesh as John 1:1, 2, 3, 14c states.

It is extremely important in whom you trust to forgive you of all your sins, past, present, and future, who alone eases all the debt of sin you owe. Only God can do this work – not a mere mortal man alone.

So 1stjohnny – there are many mortal fleshly jesus’ out there men preach on who are mortal in nature and kind and such jesus’ as that cannot forgive and release you from debt of Sin owed to God. That kind of forgiveness can only come from God himself as it is written in Isaiah 43:10, 11.

You need to come to the real Christ, not the one the JW’s and the The Way International splinter groups teach on, you so readily believe.

That choice is before you and only you can make the right one...
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Please use my screen name and if you wish you can disregard the numbers "1stjohnny" is rather offensive to me. John works just fine which is my given name.