Evidence for God from Science

Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. The Jews are descendants of Isaac and the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael. Despite their common ancestry Jews and Arabs are enemies and there seems to be little hope that this condition will change in the forseeable future. But despite their differences there are some remarkable parallels in their history.

Each group of descendants produced a great spiritual leader who claimed to have received revelations from God. Each of these leaders gave his people a book of laws governing all aspects of life. Today the culture of each group is based on the teachings of the book and of the man who gave it to them.

The Jewish leader was Moses and the book was the Torah, which makes up the first five books of the Bible. The Arab leader was Muhammad and the book was the Koran. Muhammad’s teachings are the basis of Islam, which has spread to many other peoples besides the Arabs.

Both Moses and Muhammad claimed that their revelations were from God but their teaching contradict each other in many ways. A study of Abraham’s life tells us which one is right.

The Bible’s record of Abraham’s life begins in Genesis 12.

Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3 ESV

God promised to make a great nation of Abraham. In order for this promise to be fulfilled Abraham would have to have children and for a long time his wife Sarah remained childless. Abraham had a son by Sarah’s servant Hagar and named him Ishmael but God told him that Sarah herself would have a son and that the promises God had made to Abraham would be fulfilled through him.

And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.”
Genesis 17:15-16 ESV

Sarah eventually had the promised son and named him Isaac. She then demanded that Abraham send Ishmael and his mother away.

Sarah said to Abraham, “Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac.” And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Genesis 21:10-12 ESV

God here confirmed what he had said earlier, that the promises he made to Abraham would be fulfilled through Isaac, not Ishmael. This proves that Moses, the descendant of Isaac, and not Muhammad, the descendant of Ishmael, was the true messenger of God.

The Jews were chosen by God to prepare the way for the a person called the Messiah. He would die as a sacrifice for people’s sins and then rise from the dead. He would also be the king of the Jews and establish a worldwide rule in which everyone would worship God.

Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah. When he came he did die as a sacrifice for our sins and as a result anyone who repents and puts his faith in him can be forgiven. But the Jews refused to accept him as their king. As a result he turned from the Jews and established a new body, the church, which is made up of all, both Jews and gentiles, who put their faith in him.

God promised that the Jews would have a kingdom which will never end and God always keeps his promises. For this reason Jesus promised that he would return to them.

But before that time the Jews will be deceived by a false Messiah. Jesus said,

I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
John 5:43 ESV

This false Messiah is usually referred to as the Antichrist. He will come as a peacemaker and will establish a treaty between the Jews and their enemies but then will turn against them.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.
Daniel 9:27 ESV

This treaty will enable them to resume the sacrifices commanded by the law of Moses but in the last half of the seven year treaty they will be forced to stop the sacrifices. Second Thessalonians 2:3,4 describes how he will do this:

For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

When this happens the Jews will realize that they have been deceived and will refuse to worship him. As a result they will be subjected to sever persecution which will end only when Christ returns and the Jews finally recognize that he is the true Messiah.

Obviously the Antichrist will be an agent of Satan and Satan often tries to deceive people by imitating God. God chose Abraham’s son Isaac to be the ancestor of the Messiah. Perhaps Satan chose Abraham’s other son Ishmael to be the ancestor of the Antichrist. If that is the case then Muhammad and the Koran play the same role in his plan that Moses and the Torah do in God’s plan.

Muslims believe that God will send ruler called the Mahdi who will become a world ruler and force all nations to follow Islam. Many Bible students think that he is and the Antichrist are the same person. If this is true the fact that he is accepted by both groups as someone sent by God will be the reason he will be able to bring about a peace between them.

Jews believe the Messiah will be a Jew and Muslims believe the Mahdi will be an Arab. At first it appears that this makes it impossible that the Antichrist and the Mahdi can be the same person. But Jews consider anyone born of a Jewish mother to be Jewish and Arabs consider anyone born of an Arab father to be Arab. If the Antichrist has an Arab father and a Jewish mother he will be both an Arab and a Jew and can claim to be both Mahdi and Messiah.

When the Antichrist demands that he be worshipped the Jews will realize he isn’t the Messiah. But how will Muslims react? The Bible doesn’t tell us anything about this but since they reject the idea of worshipping a man as strongly as the Jews do they will probably realize that he isn’t their Mahdi and like the Jews will refuse to worship him.

It is even possible that when Jesus returns the Arabs as well as the Jews will come to believe in him. I believe this is likely because of a promise that God made to Abraham.

And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
Genesis 17:18-20 ESV

The Bible says of Abraham,

For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:10 ESV

When he asked that Ishmael might live before God he must have been thinking of more that just this life. God’s promise to make Ishmael a great nation would only be an answer to Abraham’s prayer if he meant that his descendants will be a nation during the Millennium.

theophilus wrote:Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. The Jews are descendants of Isaac and the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael. Despite their common ancestry Jews and Arabs are enemies and there seems to be little hope that this condition will change in the forseeable future. But despite their differences there are some remarkable parallels in their history.

Each group of descendants produced a great spiritual leader who claimed to have received revelations from God. Each of these leaders gave his people a book of laws governing all aspects of life. Today the culture of each group is based on the teachings of the book and of the man who gave it to them.

The Jewish leader was Moses and the book was the Torah, which makes up the first five books of the Bible. The Arab leader was Muhammad and the book was the Koran. Muhammad’s teachings are the basis of Islam, which has spread to many other peoples besides the Arabs.

Both Moses and Muhammad claimed that their revelations were from God but their teaching contradict each other in many ways. A study of Abraham’s life tells us which one is right.

The Bible’s record of Abraham’s life begins in Genesis 12.

Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3 ESV

God promised to make a great nation of Abraham. In order for this promise to be fulfilled Abraham would have to have children and for a long time his wife Sarah remained childless. Abraham had a son by Sarah’s servant Hagar and named him Ishmael but God told him that Sarah herself would have a son and that the promises God had made to Abraham would be fulfilled through him.

And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.”
Genesis 17:15-16 ESV

Sarah eventually had the promised son and named him Isaac. She then demanded that Abraham send Ishmael and his mother away.

Sarah said to Abraham, “Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac.” And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Genesis 21:10-12 ESV

God here confirmed what he had said earlier, that the promises he made to Abraham would be fulfilled through Isaac, not Ishmael. This proves that Moses, the descendant of Isaac, and not Muhammad, the descendant of Ishmael, was the true messenger of God.

The Jews were chosen by God to prepare the way for the a person called the Messiah. He would die as a sacrifice for people’s sins and then rise from the dead. He would also be the king of the Jews and establish a worldwide rule in which everyone would worship God.

Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah. When he came he did die as a sacrifice for our sins and as a result anyone who repents and puts his faith in him can be forgiven. But the Jews refused to accept him as their king. As a result he turned from the Jews and established a new body, the church, which is made up of all, both Jews and gentiles, who put their faith in him.

God promised that the Jews would have a kingdom which will never end and God always keeps his promises. For this reason Jesus promised that he would return to them.

But before that time the Jews will be deceived by a false Messiah. Jesus said,

I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
John 5:43 ESV

This false Messiah is usually referred to as the Antichrist. He will come as a peacemaker and will establish a treaty between the Jews and their enemies but then will turn against them.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.
Daniel 9:27 ESV

This treaty will enable them to resume the sacrifices commanded by the law of Moses but in the last half of the seven year treaty they will be forced to stop the sacrifices. Second Thessalonians 2:3,4 describes how he will do this:

For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

When this happens the Jews will realize that they have been deceived and will refuse to worship him. As a result they will be subjected to sever persecution which will end only when Christ returns and the Jews finally recognize that he is the true Messiah.

Obviously the Antichrist will be an agent of Satan and Satan often tries to deceive people by imitating God. God chose Abraham’s son Isaac to be the ancestor of the Messiah. Perhaps Satan chose Abraham’s other son Ishmael to be the ancestor of the Antichrist. If that is the case then Muhammad and the Koran play the same role in his plan that Moses and the Torah do in God’s plan.

Muslims believe that God will send ruler called the Mahdi who will become a world ruler and force all nations to follow Islam. Many Bible students think that he is and the Antichrist are the same person. If this is true the fact that he is accepted by both groups as someone sent by God will be the reason he will be able to bring about a peace between them.

Jews believe the Messiah will be a Jew and Muslims believe the Mahdi will be an Arab. At first it appears that this makes it impossible that the Antichrist and the Mahdi can be the same person. But Jews consider anyone born of a Jewish mother to be Jewish and Arabs consider anyone born of an Arab father to be Arab. If the Antichrist has an Arab father and a Jewish mother he will be both an Arab and a Jew and can claim to be both Mahdi and Messiah.

When the Antichrist demands that he be worshipped the Jews will realize he isn’t the Messiah. But how will Muslims react? The Bible doesn’t tell us anything about this but since they reject the idea of worshipping a man as strongly as the Jews do they will probably realize that he isn’t their Mahdi and like the Jews will refuse to worship him.

It is even possible that when Jesus returns the Arabs as well as the Jews will come to believe in him. I believe this is likely because of a promise that God made to Abraham.

And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
Genesis 17:18-20 ESV

The Bible says of Abraham,

For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:10 ESV

When he asked that Ishmael might live before God he must have been thinking of more that just this life. God’s promise to make Ishmael a great nation would only be an answer to Abraham’s prayer if he meant that his descendants will be a nation during the Millennium.

You gave the biblical accounts with your presupposition that the bible is correct. If you could parallel any of these verses within the Quran, it would be most helpful.

The Quran and the scriptures/bible in my opinion are quite similar.

1stjohn0666 wrote:You gave the biblical accounts with your presupposition that the bible is correct.

Why do you refer to the belief that the Bible is correct as my presupposition? Don't you agree with it? According to your profile you are a Christian and Christianity is based on the belief that the Bible is true.

If you could parallel any of these verses within the Quran, it would be most helpful. The Quran and the scriptures/bible in my opinion are quite similar.

Have you ever read the Quran? I started to read it once but it was so boring and hard to understand that I gave up about half way through. It is nothing like the Bible. The Bible contains much historical information. The Quran simply contains teachings without any history to provide background and context.

theophilus wrote: Why do you refer to the belief that the Bible is correct as my presupposition? Don't you agree with it? According to your profile you are a Christian and Christianity is based on the belief that the Bible is true.

All the information you gave was biblical, thus I assumed your presupposition. I agree with the bible.

Have you ever read the Quran? I started to read it once but it was so boring and hard to understand that I gave up about half way through. It is nothing like the Bible. The Bible contains much historical information. The Quran simply contains teachings without any history to provide background and context.

I read and re-read the quran, and I find it to be very similar to the bible. I love my Muslim friends. We have similar beliefs that we can agree on, yet there are a FEW that we disagree.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

theophilus wrote:
Have you ever read the Quran? I started to read it once but it was so boring and hard to understand that I gave up about half way through. It is nothing like the Bible. The Bible contains much historical information. The Quran simply contains teachings without any history to provide background and context.

I read and re-read the quran, and I find it to be very similar to the bible. I love my Muslim friends. We have similar beliefs that we can agree on, yet there are a FEW that we disagree.

Then I submit to you that neither you nor they understand the Quran (or the Bible for that matter).

Byblos wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

theophilus wrote:
Have you ever read the Quran? I started to read it once but it was so boring and hard to understand that I gave up about half way through. It is nothing like the Bible. The Bible contains much historical information. The Quran simply contains teachings without any history to provide background and context.

I read and re-read the quran, and I find it to be very similar to the bible. I love my Muslim friends. We have similar beliefs that we can agree on, yet there are a FEW that we disagree.

Then I submit to you that neither you nor they understand the Quran (or the Bible for that matter).

It seems that you think my knowledge of the bible and the quran are misunderstood as said by only you. Is my understanding of the scriptures different than yours....YES
Is my understanding of the quran different than yours....YES
Is my understanding of God different than yours...YES
I do not hold to Creeds for biblical exegesis..etc.

I also agree with Byblos in that you, 1stjohn0666, do not know what you are talking about. (Of course, Byblos said it more politely than I because he's a banker.)

I think it is dangerous for someone like you to be going about presenting yourself as a Christian and holding to the idea that the Koran and the Bible are similar. I pray that you do not pervert too many people with your lies.

BTW, for those who are interested, The Generous Qur'an by Usama Dakdok is an easy-to-read translation which purports to show Westerners what the Koran really says. The author claims that other Korans* available to Westerners are actually watered-down interpretations which whitewash all of the harsh passages. Since the publication of Dakdok's translation, Muslim groups from around the world have denounced his translation, belittled Dakdok's abilities and portrayed him as a hate monger.

I don't know about you, but if radical clerics and djellaba-wearing angry men are denouncing Dakdok, I would tend to pay attention.

FL

*The Koran by N.J. Dawood is a popular abridged version, and The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali is a widely-available whitewash.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I also agree with Byblos in that you, 1stjohn0666, do not know what you are talking about. (Of course, Byblos said it more politely than I because he's a banker.)

I think it is dangerous for someone like you to be going about presenting yourself as a Christian and holding to the idea that the Koran and the Bible are similar. I pray that you do not pervert too many people with your lies.

BTW, for those who are interested, The Generous Qur'an by Usama Dakdok is an easy-to-read translation which purports to show Westerners what the Koran really says. The author claims that other Korans* available to Westerners are actually watered-down interpretations which whitewash all of the harsh passages. Since the publication of Dakdok's translation, Muslim groups from around the world have denounced his translation, belittled Dakdok's abilities and portrayed him as a hate monger.

I don't know about you, but if radical clerics and djellaba-wearing angry men are denouncing Dakdok, I would tend to pay attention.

FL

*The Koran by N.J. Dawood is a popular abridged version, and The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali is a widely-available whitewash.

If you'd like I could give some similarities, as there are many. I never said they are identical.

1stjohn0666 wrote:If you'd like I could give some similarities, as there are many. I never said they are identical.

(Sorry...I was away for a few days.) I have several Korans - two of them are study Korans - so I can look up relevant passages myself. Even so, thanks for the offer. Anyway, Muhammad knew about the Scriptures and there was even a sizeable Jewish community in Medina.* The Prophet - peace be upon him - was obviously familiar with the Bible because he quoted (and distorted) many a biblical story line.

The problem with you and others like you is that you say that the Koran is a valid holy book. A Christian - a real one - would never say that.

FL

*sizeable, that is, until Muhammad butchered the whole lot of them! Their bodies are now under the market place in central Medina.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:If you'd like I could give some similarities, as there are many. I never said they are identical.

(Sorry...I was away for a few days.) I have several Korans - two of them are study Korans - so I can look up relevant passages myself. Even so, thanks for the offer. Anyway, Muhammad knew about the Scriptures and there was even a sizeable Jewish community in Medina.* The Prophet - peace be upon him - was obviously familiar with the Bible because he quoted (and distorted) many a biblical story line.

The problem with you and others like you is that you say that the Koran is a valid holy book. A Christian - a real one - would never say that.

FL

*sizeable, that is, until Muhammad butchered the whole lot of them! Their bodies are now under the market place in central Medina.

I would say that the Quran is a valid holy book for the people of the Islamic faith.
I would say that the "Christian" scriptures are valid for people of the "Christian faith"

1stjohn0666 wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:If you'd like I could give some similarities, as there are many. I never said they are identical.

(Sorry...I was away for a few days.) I have several Korans - two of them are study Korans - so I can look up relevant passages myself. Even so, thanks for the offer. Anyway, Muhammad knew about the Scriptures and there was even a sizeable Jewish community in Medina.* The Prophet - peace be upon him - was obviously familiar with the Bible because he quoted (and distorted) many a biblical story line.

The problem with you and others like you is that you say that the Koran is a valid holy book. A Christian - a real one - would never say that.

FL

*sizeable, that is, until Muhammad butchered the whole lot of them! Their bodies are now under the market place in central Medina.

I would say that the Quran is a valid holy book for the people of the Islamic faith.
I would say that the "Christian" scriptures are valid for people of the "Christian faith"

Valid? Valid for what? The bible is God's message that Christ died for all, even Muslims. What could the Koran give to Muslims that they need, that the message of the bible can't?

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:If you'd like I could give some similarities, as there are many. I never said they are identical.

(Sorry...I was away for a few days.) I have several Korans - two of them are study Korans - so I can look up relevant passages myself. Even so, thanks for the offer. Anyway, Muhammad knew about the Scriptures and there was even a sizeable Jewish community in Medina.* The Prophet - peace be upon him - was obviously familiar with the Bible because he quoted (and distorted) many a biblical story line.

The problem with you and others like you is that you say that the Koran is a valid holy book. A Christian - a real one - would never say that.

FL

*sizeable, that is, until Muhammad butchered the whole lot of them! Their bodies are now under the market place in central Medina.

I would say that the Quran is a valid holy book for the people of the Islamic faith.
I would say that the "Christian" scriptures are valid for people of the "Christian faith"

Valid? Valid for what? The bible is God's message that Christ died for all, even Muslims. What could the Koran give to Muslims that they need, that the message of the bible can't?

I simply stated that the Quran is holy book for people of the Islamic faith. And in it you can find the return of Jesus and judgement.
Ali Imran 3:52-58
I am a Christian. I choose the Jewish scriptures to define my faith and beliefs.
If I were Muslim I would choose the holy Quran as my holy book that would define my faith and beliefs.

1stjohn0666 wrote:I simply stated that the Quran is holy book for people of the Islamic faith. And in it you can find the return of Jesus and judgement.
Ali Imran 3:52-58
I am a Christian. I choose the Jewish scriptures to define my faith and beliefs.
If I were Muslim I would choose the holy Quran as my holy book that would define my faith and beliefs.

You are one spiritually mixed-up person! The Jesus of the Koran is a very different Jesus from the one in the Bible. They are not the same individual. Allah is not YHWH. As for the sacred texts, one is the Word of God and the other is a satanic tale.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:I simply stated that the Quran is holy book for people of the Islamic faith. And in it you can find the return of Jesus and judgement.
Ali Imran 3:52-58
I am a Christian. I choose the Jewish scriptures to define my faith and beliefs.
If I were Muslim I would choose the holy Quran as my holy book that would define my faith and beliefs.

You are one spiritually mixed-up person! The Jesus of the Koran is a very different Jesus from the one in the Bible. They are not the same individual. Allah is not YHWH. As for the sacred texts, one is the Word of God and the other is a satanic tale.

FL

FL, you are correct. The Jesus of the bible us not the same jesus of the Koran. But for 1stjohn, it's the same jesus. 1stjohn denies that Jesus of Nazareth in the bible, is God in the flesh. So for 1stjohn, there's no problem calling both the bible and the Koran "holy". The bible says that God sent His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him has everlasting life. The Koran says that Allah has no son.

So, 1stjohn is in fact NOT a Christian, because he denies who Christ really is. One cannot deny the one true Jesus Christ, and just trust in any old Christ. Eternal life comes by God's grace, through faith in the Jesus Christ of the bible, who is God incarnate.

There is something that must be said when comparing faiths like Christianity and Islam.
In regards to their "holy books":
You can NOT be a muslim without the Koran and without believing it to be 100% from Mohammed and Gabriel and to be representative of the ONE TRUE GOD Allah.
That is what makes a muslim a muslim.
A Christian on the other hand is one by FAITH in a PERSON, Jesus Christ and not in a book ( though the bible holds a very special place in ALL Christians hearts).
There is no Islam without the koran.
There is Christianity without the bible, but there is NO Christianity without Christ.

Islam is a religion of laws and rules and of a God that does NOT relate to Humans and it is unaccetable to even conceive of a personal realtionship with God.
Christianity is ALL ABOUT a personal relationship with God THROUGH His ONLY Begotten Son, Christ.

Islam views the notion of God incarnate as heresy and the notion of the Son of God atoning for US, dying for Us as an impossibility.
Christianity is centered on Christ's sacrifice AND His resurrection.