Evidence for God from Science

Here is an honest question for you, Magsolo.

I would really like to know what have you so far learned from us? You are here from June 2012, so I suppose you already gained some knowledge.

So I came here during an especially strong point of the collapse of my faith. A lot of thoughts came to me during this period so I came here to pose some of these thoughts and questions and to see if any other christians had struggled with these ideas and if so, how they reconciled them. I cant really say that I have learned much of anything besides the fact that everything God does and commands is good even when reasonable people no it is not. Ill recap some of my threads to illustrate this.

My first thread asked was cursing the earth and all mankind a just punishment for adam and eve disobeying God and eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good an evil. The board seems to unanimously agree that this was a just and reasonable punishment if for no other reason than because everything God does is just and reasonable. That isnt very logical at all to me and probably to most logical and reasonable people.

I asked if it was good and just for God to allow Satan to kill Jobs wife and all of his children to prove a point. The board seems to agree that God allowed it so yes it was good and just. Again I think most logical and reasonable people would disagree.

I asked was it good and just for God to command the Israelites to kill children and infants in the lands of their enemies. The board unanimously agrees that God commanded it so it is good and just.

Ive asked about God clearly condoning slavery in the bible and Ive been told that it wasnt normal slavery like how we think of it but more like being servants. This totally disregards that God specifically makes a distinction between servants and slaves while still condoning slavery as long as its not fellow Israelites. Again if God commands it then I guess its good.

Ive asked how an all-powerful and good God can allow evil and I guess we are still working on this.

If ive learned anything Id guess its that you guys believe that anything God does or commands is automatically good and just, no matter how terrible it might seem through the eyes of modern, logical, and reasonable men and women. The best answer I have gotten for any of these is that God is good. Do you not see why so many people say that religion is so dangerous?

MAGSolo wrote:
If ive learned anything Id guess its that you guys believe that anything God does or commands is automatically good and just, no matter how terrible it might seem through the eyes of modern men.

So you did learn something. If God is good, then everything He commands MUST be good. Even if we, in our finite wisdom don't agree. IF God's commands are good, then we should try to understand WHY they are good. Think outside your little box, MAGSolo.

MAGSolo wrote:
. The best answer I have gotten for any of these is that God is good. Do you not see why so many people say that religion is so dangerous?

MAG, I have read the answers you have gotten to your questions. "Because God is good" is not what you have been shown.

Again, look at it this way. IF God is good, then why does He do X? IF God is good, then why does He allow Y?

Assume for the sake of discussion that God IS good, and try to understand from that pov. I'm not asking you to believe God is good, just assume it for the answers to your questions.

RickD wrote:Think outside your little box, MAGSolo.

1. It is impossible for MAGSolo to think outside his little box! Matthew 11:17, 18, 19...atheists are too blind to see, too filled with hatred towards God, too sinful and too blasphemous to recognize God no matter what miracle He may perform.

2. Ro 8:7, atheists hate God.

3. Jas 4:4, atheists hate God.

4. Arguing with an atheist is pointless. The best we can do for atheists is to pray for them. God devises ways so that sinners will seek Him: 2Sam 14:14.

FL

When a person allows themselves to go down the road into moral relativism, how will they ever be able to tell what is objectively good and what is objectively bad anymore. It all becomes arbitrary.
Mag, ill even keep it simple.
Can you explain to what kind of finite suffering in this finite plane of existence can even compare to spending eternity in heaven.
Try to find even one.
Do we deserve heaven??????
Heck no, but God loves us all (you included), that he came down from his throne in heaven not only to show us how to love another another, but to die for our sins (which are too many list in all the books in the world) to give us a chance for eternal life.

Instead of spending the rest of your life fighting against God, rebelling against God, pretending to think that you can exercise moral judgment against the objective moral,lawgiver, whose ways are far beyond ours in every area.
Once a person goes down that dark road they can't even see how biased they have become against God.
I don't know anyone on earth that loves me like God does.
He loves you Mag, he loves you more then you know, he loves you enough to give you the choice to come to him or not to come to him.

Instead of focusing on an all loving God, why not focus on the being that hates you more than anything (Satan), the one who thinks you are no better than a maggot . The one who will try anything to poison your heart against God.

Mag, you may not know this but I've been praying every night before i go to bed for you to let your guard down and let Jesus into your heart. This is not meant to slight you. I do this because I genuinely care about you, and it's so frustrating to see you throw this incredible gift back in Gods face all the time.

I hope one day that my prayer for you comes true man, I'm gonna pray every day for you for the rest of my life, because I Truely know what's at stake for u more then u know for uself.

MAGSolo wrote:So I came here during an especially strong point of the collapse of my faith. A lot of thoughts came to me during this period so I came here to pose some of these thoughts and questions and to see if any other christians had struggled with these ideas and if so, how they reconciled them. I cant really say that I have learned much of anything besides the fact that everything God does and commands is good even when reasonable people no it is not. Ill recap some of my threads to illustrate this.

My first thread asked was cursing the earth and all mankind a just punishment for adam and eve disobeying God and eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good an evil. The board seems to unanimously agree that this was a just and reasonable punishment if for no other reason than because everything God does is just and reasonable. That isnt very logical at all to me and probably to most logical and reasonable people.

I asked if it was good and just for God to allow Satan to kill Jobs wife and all of his children to prove a point. The board seems to agree that God allowed it so yes it was good and just. Again I think most logical and reasonable people would disagree.

I asked was it good and just for God to command the Israelites to kill children and infants in the lands of their enemies. The board unanimously agrees that God commanded it so it is good and just.

Ive asked about God clearly condoning slavery in the bible and Ive been told that it wasnt normal slavery like how we think of it but more like being servants. This totally disregards that God specifically makes a distinction between servants and slaves while still condoning slavery as long as its not fellow Israelites. Again if God commands it then I guess its good.

Ive asked how an all-powerful and good God can allow evil and I guess we are still working on this.

If ive learned anything Id guess its that you guys believe that anything God does or commands is automatically good and just, no matter how terrible it might seem through the eyes of modern, logical, and reasonable men and women. The best answer I have gotten for any of these is that God is good. Do you not see why so many people say that religion is so dangerous?

Magsolo, tell me honestly, should I consider your answer honest? There is not a mention of something you learned that sounds reasonable.

MAGSolo wrote:So I came here during an especially strong point of the collapse of my faith. A lot of thoughts came to me during this period so I came here to pose some of these thoughts and questions and to see if any other christians had struggled with these ideas and if so, how they reconciled them. I cant really say that I have learned much of anything besides the fact that everything God does and commands is good even when reasonable people no it is not. Ill recap some of my threads to illustrate this.

My first thread asked was cursing the earth and all mankind a just punishment for adam and eve disobeying God and eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good an evil. The board seems to unanimously agree that this was a just and reasonable punishment if for no other reason than because everything God does is just and reasonable. That isnt very logical at all to me and probably to most logical and reasonable people.

I asked if it was good and just for God to allow Satan to kill Jobs wife and all of his children to prove a point. The board seems to agree that God allowed it so yes it was good and just. Again I think most logical and reasonable people would disagree.

I asked was it good and just for God to command the Israelites to kill children and infants in the lands of their enemies. The board unanimously agrees that God commanded it so it is good and just.

Ive asked about God clearly condoning slavery in the bible and Ive been told that it wasnt normal slavery like how we think of it but more like being servants. This totally disregards that God specifically makes a distinction between servants and slaves while still condoning slavery as long as its not fellow Israelites. Again if God commands it then I guess its good.

Ive asked how an all-powerful and good God can allow evil and I guess we are still working on this.

If ive learned anything Id guess its that you guys believe that anything God does or commands is automatically good and just, no matter how terrible it might seem through the eyes of modern, logical, and reasonable men and women. The best answer I have gotten for any of these is that God is good. Do you not see why so many people say that religion is so dangerous?

Mag - first of all I would highly reccomend you read - "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan. He covers a lot of the issues you are talking about in the old testament - this helped me understand a lot of things and how to reconcile a loving God with the suppose attorcities that seemed to go on in the first few books of the bible.

As for the problem of evil - You have to ask yourself what is the best possible world that God can create that also allows freewill beings? to be honest I think the answer is this one. God allows evil to exist as the meaning of life is not to be happy but for the greatest number of people to come to know God - freely and with love. Evil is a "necessary evil". But be clear that it is not God that causes it but permits it because we trust that he has a morally good reason to allow it so. He sees history from beginning to end and so in his providence and middle knowledge he allows certain evils and prevents others. Remember the biggest evil ever commited in this world was when we executed his son - but then look at the overwhelming good that will come from.

Also another point is that if we accept Jesus's sacrifice then the rewards that are waiting for us in heaven will make any pain or suffering experienced on earth seem like an insignificant blip on our lifes - as Paul atested to in his letters. (although I can't remember the verse)

So I need to ask this again I guess. What exactly is so great about free will and will we be stripped of free will in heaven or still have it?

MAGSolo wrote:So I need to ask this again I guess. What exactly is so great about free will and will we be stripped of free will in heaven or still have it?

Mag, free will is so awesome because God wants you to choose to love Him. He loves you that much, that He won't make you love Him. Forced love really isn't love at all.

As far as free will in heaven, I see it as once one trusts in Christ for salvation, God begins the process of sanctifying a believer. Part of that is God conforming our will to His. So, in heaven our will is conformed to His will.

MAGSolo wrote:So I need to ask this again I guess. What exactly is so great about free will and will we be stripped of free will in heaven or still have it?

This is why free will is "so" great. If there was no free will, then true love cannot exist. Free will and true love co-exist with one and other. You understand that a trait of true love is the element of choice. It is this choice which allows us to choose what we love and what we do not love. I believe that God gifted humans with free will in order to give us the element of choice as to whether or not we love Him. That's what's so great about it, God is so loving towards humanity that He gives you the choice to accept or reject Him. For those that accept Him, He lavishes grace, love, mercy, compassion and kindness upon every single one of them. As for those who reject Him, well....you know what happens.

Free will is one of the greatest gifts ever bestowed upon humanity.

As for free will in heaven, let me ask you another question...what would we need it for? I am assuming you understand to an extent what the Biblical idea of heaven will be like.

Free will is why love exists.
Without being free to choose then we have no choice and if we have no choice, then there is no such thing a love.
Free will leads us to the greatest expression of human love - compassion.
Free will is the only way humans can understand true love -unconditional love.
I love my children, without conditions and I can do that because i am free NOT to love them or to love them with conditions.
I choose to love them unconditionally.

You guys are like so many fishies on a line that MAGSolo has put out but doesn't know how to reel in!

I used to do the same thing when I was an atheist. All of your posts to him are for naught.

I'm left wondering when (and if) I sould rub it in by saying ''I told ya so!''

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You guys are like so many fishies on a line that MAGSolo has put out but doesn't know how to reel in!

I used to do the same thing when I was an atheist. All of your posts to him are for naught.

I'm left wondering when (and if) I sould rub it in by saying ''I told ya so!''

FL

Well FL, something obviously got you to change your mind. What was it?

RickD wrote:
Well FL, something obviously got you to change your mind. What was it?

I did nothing. My mind was set against God until He gave me the gift of faith. The gift came as a result of years of prayer by earnest Christians who petitioned God on my behalf.

MAGSolo and those of you who have chosen to ''debate'' him are all doing so in a most emotional manner. MAGSolo accuses the Bible and many of you respond out of love and a belief that he is really looking for answers. MAGSolo has displayed his verbal hooliganism over and over, and we respond impotently.

Why do both of you keep at it? MAGSolo does it because he truly thinks he has you cornered with his tough questions, and it bolsters his ego to see that you can never answer to his satisfaction. You - plural - may answer out of love and concern for a lost soul on his way to hell...maybe you feel more ''Christian'' & loving! Whatever the motivations, they are sterile.

I submit that those who debate him are pushing MAGSolo further into his hole and making him a greater child of hell than he already is. Answer his charges if you must but don't keep explaining and re-explaining the same verse over and over: train his mind - he desperately needs it - don't spoil him like a stubborn child. Don't play his silly game.

And if you really want to help him, pray for him like bippy123 does.

FL

I just like to debate..............................keeps my mind sharp.


Dan