Evidence for God from Science

How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

1stjohn0666 wrote:How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

God incarnate.

It is clear in Genesis that creation was CREATED and not "born" ( that is pagan mythology).
That Christ is FirstBORN means that he is NOT created.
What is born of something has the same nature as that and what is created has its own nature.
Christ being firstborn of God is God by nature.

1stjohn0666 wrote:How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

John, you can't avoid Christ's deity. He is the image(God in the flesh) of the invisible God. The firstborn refers to Christ's preeminence and preexistence.

As always, it is important to see the WHOLE and not just one verse:
The Incomparable Christ

13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

John, you can't avoid Christ's deity. He is the image(God in the flesh) of the invisible God. The firstborn refers to Christ's preeminence and preexistence.

Sure I can, "He (Jesus) is the IMAGE of the invisible God" The "He" in the phrase is Jesus, God is NOT Jesus nor is Jesus God. An image is NOT the original, therefore Jesus is not God.
"PROTOS" can mean, before in time, or first in rank.
Col 1:18 can give us some context "He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything" This tells me that "firstborn" means first in rank. Not before in time.

Thanks Paul for putting more of the verses up in the discussion!!

I am using a little exegesis now. In Exodus 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn." This does not mean before in time, it means first in rank.
Jeremiah 31:9 plays the same way NOT before in time, but first in rank "With weeping they will come, And by supplication I will lead them; I will make them walk by streams of waters, On a straight path in which they will not stumble; For I am a father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn."
Psalm 89:27 is a fine definition of how I interpret firstborn in 1 Col 1:15
Here is Psalm 89:27 "I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth."

Col 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." the Greek has "PRO PANTON" (before all things) does not mean before in time. This is a rank issue.
Also it is important to note that the verb in the phrase "He is before all things" The text clearly sets this in the present tense, not the past!! Otherwise We would read "He WAS before all things.
James uses the phrase "PRO PANTON"
James 5:12 "But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment." The phrase we read in English is "But above all" in Greek is "PRO PANTON" and does not stress before in time once again.

When I say Christ is "PRO PANTON" Christ is the preeminent one. Not that he existed as some spirit being "God the son" living with God to come here on Earth and to be miraculously transformed into a helpless baby.

Jesus certainly is "The highest of the kings of the earth"

John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

So, are you saying God the son didn't exist before He was incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth?

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

So, are you saying God the son didn't exist before He was incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth?

I am not saying "God the son" first of all, as that phrase has no scriptural support.
The question you are asking is certainly what Arius taught, and I disagree. I believe in the incarnation, just not as you do. Jesus is the incarnation of the logos (word) of God.
I don't believe the preexisting Jesus hopped out of heaven and transformed into a helpless "God the son" baby.
Do you believe Mary changed Gods diapers?

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

So, are you saying God the son didn't exist before He was incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth?

I am not saying "God the son" first of all, as that phrase has no scriptural support.
The question you are asking is certainly what Arius taught, and I disagree. I believe in the incarnation, just not as you do. Jesus is the incarnation of the logos (word) of God.
I don't believe the preexisting Jesus hopped out of heaven and transformed into a helpless "God the son" baby.
Do you believe Mary changed Gods diapers?

Yep, absolutley and without Johnson's baby wipes or pampers - it was messy business. I don't think you really understand the awesome humility of God to come down to that level to allow us to know him better and be saved by him. That is why I worship Jesus as my Lord and saviour - because of his outrageous grace.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

So, are you saying God the son didn't exist before He was incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth?

I am not saying "God the son" first of all, as that phrase has no scriptural support.
The question you are asking is certainly what Arius taught, and I disagree. I believe in the incarnation, just not as you do. Jesus is the incarnation of the logos (word) of God.
I don't believe the preexisting Jesus hopped out of heaven and transformed into a helpless "God the son" baby.
Do you believe Mary changed Gods diapers?

John, you are so close, yet so very far away. Jesus is the incarnation of the Word. But you deny that the Word is God. Scripture is clear that the Word IS God.
John 1:1-5:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John, Arius' concept of Christ was that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by God.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

Where did the pre-existing Jesus come from?
Was He created by God?

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

Where did the pre-existing Jesus come from?
Was He created by God?

Paul, I would guess 1stjohn would meaninglessly assert(by his meaningless definition of begotten)that he was begotten. Maybe 1stjohn just thinks Jesus "poofed" into existence. Since 1stjohn doesn't believe Jesus of Nazareth preexisted as God before his incarnation, and he doesn't believe he was created, the only other"logical" option would be the "poofing" theory.

Maybe we can name it 1stjohnism. The belief that Jesus neither pre existed nor was created, he just "poofed" into Mary's womb.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:John, was Jesus, was the Son of God created by God?

What does Luke 1:35 say of the subject?
Begotten means to come into existence. Deut 18:15-18, Isa 51:16, Acts 3:20-26 are key texts.
By Gods own word, YES I believe that Jesus was a uniquely begotten person. It was a miracle birth, not by sexual relation between God and Mary. I do not believe that God begat God, that's just silly talk to me.

I do believe in Gods own words John 1:14 "incarnation" that Jesus came to be.

Where did the pre-existing Jesus come from?
Was He created by God?

Paul, I would guess 1stjohn would meaninglessly assert(by his meaningless definition of begotten)that he was begotten. Maybe 1stjohn just thinks Jesus "poofed" into existence. Since 1stjohn doesn't believe Jesus of Nazareth preexisted as God before his incarnation, and he doesn't believe he was created, the only other"logical" option would be the "poofing" theory.

Maybe we can name it 1stjohnism. The belief that Jesus neither pre existed nor was created, he just "poofed" into Mary's womb.

Well, he keeps making mention of the incarnation but doesn't seen to address that Jesus( the Son of God) existed BEFORE the incarnation and if that is so, where did the "pre-incarnate" son of God come from?