Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:29 pm**

Does Luke 23:34 prove Universalism?
Jesus asks His Father to forgive people who do not know He is God. Jesus says that God always answers His prayers.

So does this mean someone who does not know Jesus as God can be saved?

Posted: **Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:56 pm**

7777777 wrote:Does Luke 23:34 prove Universalism?
Jesus asks His Father to forgive people who do not know He is God. Jesus says that God always answers His prayers.

So does this mean someone who does not know Jesus as God can be saved?

This phrase is in line with with Isaiah 53:12: "He made intercession for transgressors" - praying for those that believe in Him. In other words, these words are for those awoken to see their transgression of rejecting, despising, mocking, beating, putting on trial, bearing false witness against God thru the act of rejecting the Messiah Jesus. Only those, as Jesus explained in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 - John 6:47 - John 12:44, 45, 46c that believe in Him will be saved. Others continue knowing not what they are doing continue to live blissfully in the dark heading toward God's wrath:

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

Nahum 1:2, 3, "God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked..." NKJV

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness..." NKJV

So the answer is No - this does not prove Universalism but rather counters it.

There is more to this and I'll leave that for others to expound upon.
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Posted: **Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:39 pm**

B. W. wrote: This phrase is in line with with Isaiah 53:12: "He made intercession for transgressors" - praying for those that believe in Him. In other words, these words are for those awoken to see their transgression of rejecting, despising, mocking, beating, putting on trial, bearing false witness against God thru the act of rejecting the Messiah Jesus. Only those, as Jesus explained in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 - John 6:47 - John 12:44, 45, 46c that believe in Him will be saved. Others continue knowing not what they are doing continue to live blissfully in the dark heading toward God's wrath:

Are you saying Jesus is not specifically speaking about those who are crucifying Him? But, they did not see their transgression; this is why Jesus says, "....they know not what they do." Jesus asks God to forgive them.

Posted: **Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:44 am**

7777777 wrote:
B. W. wrote: This phrase is in line with with Isaiah 53:12: "He made intercession for transgressors" - praying for those that believe in Him. In other words, these words are for those awoken to see their transgression of rejecting, despising, mocking, beating, putting on trial, bearing false witness against God thru the act of rejecting the Messiah Jesus. Only those, as Jesus explained in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 - John 6:47 - John 12:44, 45, 46c that believe in Him will be saved. Others continue knowing not what they are doing continue to live blissfully in the dark heading toward God's wrath:
Are you saying Jesus is not specifically speaking about those who are crucifying Him? But, they did not see their transgression; this is why Jesus says, "....they know not what they do." Jesus asks God to forgive them.

Gill's Commentary explains it like this:

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots
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Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them,.... When he was crucified between the two thieves, and as he hung upon the cross, and while insulted and abused by all sorts of men, and put to the greatest pain and torture, he addressed himself to God his Father: the Arabic version reads, "my Father", who was so to him, not as he was man; for as such he had no father; but as he was God, being as a divine person, his beloved, and only begotten Son: and this he uses, whilst, as man, he is praying to him; partly to express his faith of relation to him; his confidence of being heard; and partly to set believers an example of praying, as he has directed, saying, "our Father", &c. and the petition put up by him is for forgiveness; which is with God, and with him only; and that for his enemies, his crucifiers: not for those who sinned the sin unto death, the sin against the Holy Ghost, who knowing him to be the Messiah, maliciously crucified him, for whom prayer is not to be made; but for those who were ignorantly concerned in it, as the next clause shows, even for his own elect, whom the Father had given him out of the world, which were among his crucifiers; for those, and not the world, he prays: and the fruit of this his prayer quickly appeared, in the conversion of three thousand of them under Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, next following, in six weeks time. Though such might be his affection, as man, in general, as to wish for, and desire, as such, was it consistent with the divine will, forgiveness for all of them; adding,

for they know not what they do, or "are doing", meaning, in crucifying him, which was the case of many of them, and of their rulers; they did not know that Jesus was the Messiah, nor the prophecies concerning him, nor the evil they were committing in putting him to death: not that their ignorance excused their sin; nor was it without sin; nor does Christ use it as a plea for pardon, or found his intercession upon it, which is always done upon his own propitiatory sacrifice; but this is mentioned as descriptive of the persons Christ prays for, and points out a branch of his priestly office he exercises, in having compassion on the ignorant, and them that are out of the way;

and they parted his raiment, and cast lots: that is, upon his vesture, or seamless coat, and so fulfilled the prophecy in Psalm 22:18. See Gill on Matthew 27:35. See Gill on John 19:23. See Gill on John 19:24.

Another comment on this verse states this:

Question: "Why did Jesus say 'Father, forgive them' on the cross?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/Father-forgive-them.html

Answer: Jesus’ words “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing” are found in Luke 23:34. Jesus looked down from the cross upon the scene that was most distressing to Him. The Roman soldiers were casting lots for His clothing (John 19:23-24); the criminals on the crosses to either side of Him were reviling Him (Matthew 27:44); the religious leaders were mocking Him (Matthew 27:41-43); and the crowd was blaspheming Him (Matthew 27:39). Jesus looked down upon this most unworthy lot and said, “Father, forgive them.” How could this be?

Even in His agony, Jesus’ concern was for the forgiveness of those who counted themselves among His enemies. He asked the Father to forgive the thieves on the cross who jeered and made fun of Him, one of whom went on to accept His love and mercy (Luke 23:32-33, 39-43). He asked the Father to forgive the Roman soldiers who had mocked Him, spit on Him, beat Him, yanked out His beard, whipped Him, put a crown of thorns on His head, and nailed Him cruelly to the cross. Still they personally held no ill will towards Him. They were simply following orders. This was how they normally treated condemned men and they believed that He truly deserved it. They didn’t know that they were killing the Son of God (1 Corinthians 2:8).

Jesus asked forgiveness for the angry mob that had mocked Him, jeered Him, and called for His crucifixion (Mark 15:29-30). Again, they didn’t really know who they were trying to destroy. The Sadducees and the Pharisees had deceived them into believing that Jesus was a fake and a troublemaker (Acts 3:17). Jesus was forgiving the Sadducees and the Pharisees who had demanded His death. They had rejected Him as their Messiah even though they knew just who and what He was. Jesus, in His infinite mercy, still loved them and would have forgiven them had they only humbled themselves and repented (Matthew 18:14; 2 Peter 3:9).

Most importantly, on the cross, Jesus was providing forgiveness for all those who would ever believe in Him (Matthew 20:28). The cross didn’t kill Jesus. The Romans didn’t kill Jesus. The Sadducees and Pharisees didn’t kill Jesus. Jesus willingly gave up His earthly life for the sins of His own (Ephesians 2:8-9). He paid the penalty for the sins that we commit in our ignorance (and even the ones we’ve committed deliberately). In forgiving us, Jesus fulfilled yet another Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53:12f). He also made a reality of His own preaching. He had said, “love your enemies” (Matthew 5:44); now He was proving it.

Stephen, the first Christian martyr, continued Jesus’ example (Acts 7:60). If they could forgive those who persecuted them, then surely we can forgive those who make themselves our enemies.The beauty of the Bible is that it reveals God’s forgiveness, available to us through Christ and exemplified in Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross (John 3:16-17). When we come to Christ in faith and repentance as a result of His drawing us to Himself (John 6:44), He says of us, “Father, forgive them,” and He does!

Recommended Resources: Logos Bible Software and Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:16 am**

IMO:
God forgives those that truly do NOT know what they are doing.
Jesus' intercession was for those that did NOT know what they were truly doing, unlike those of the Sanhedrin for example.
How does that apply to unbelievers?
Those that truly do NOT know Christ for whatever reason ( not been preached the Gospel, have been preached a false one and didn't know, etc) will have a chance to KNOW and be forgiven.
I think this passage in John helps to understand that:
John 5:

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [f]the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Jesus seems to be stating that those that believe in God and Him will NOT come into judgment ( verse 24 is clear) and that there will be a resurrection and judgment for those that have done good and done evil and since Jesus said that believers will not be judged, IMO< this then means that unbelievers will be judged based on what they have done since they do NOT believe in Christ and His Father.

Posted: **Sun May 05, 2013 5:59 pm**

7777777 wrote:Does Luke 23:34 prove Universalism?
Jesus asks His Father to forgive people who do not know He is God. Jesus says that God always answers His prayers.

So does this mean someone who does not know Jesus as God can be saved?

Not necessarily "prove" but "support" perhaps...

But then Universal what? Forgiveness...? Salvation...?

I don't see them as one and the same.

Posted: **Sun May 05, 2013 6:48 pm**

Here is a perspective I found fascinating in my reflections not so long ago.

Jesus is ultimately responsible for all Creation...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3; John 1:14)

As such, though innocent in action, it was Jesus' cup to drink the sins of Creation...

And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.” (Matt 26:39)
He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.” (Matt 26:42)
And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more. (Matt 26:44)

Creation, out of hate for their Creator, beat and crucified the One they reviled against for the lives that they were given and made to live out. All the pain and sufferings, bitterness and resentment was taken out on the Creator.

If there was any fault we find with God our Creator for the pain and suffering in our lives, or that we see God allows to go on with others and atrocities around the world... it was met with Jesus who being in the very nature God, humbled Himself and took on human form to "drink a cup" that only He could as Creator drink. He took on our sin and hatred head on, bore the brunt of creation's "punishment" though He Himself did no wrong. I dare say Christ even sought our forgiveness for those times in life we don't understand why God allows evil to the extent He tolerates, and to those of us who would have preferred to not partake of life (since when we realise we're apart of the problem we may resent our Creator for even creating us).

It was a cup only Christ could drink for He was the author of Creation. And through Christ's own association with us and willingly choosing to live our life, only one that ended with beatings, lashings and crucifixion -- we have hope that if Christ saw the good to come out drinking His cup, then there must be good reason for the most inexplicable and worst pains and evils that the world and Satan placed in our cups to drink.

Mind my improvision... but God the Father then turns to Christ the Creator -- the head of all Creation -- for a response... so they've beat you, whipped you, nailed you to a cross, denied you and disowned you. Though innocent, you were put to death by the Law as a false prophet... now the Law owes you and the fate of Creation is in your hands. What will you do? And to this Jesus responds while still nailed in the cross:

“Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)

We -- the created -- did not know we were putting to death even the King of the Jews, but rather the Creator of All Creation.

After this, all that then remained to be done was the justification of Christ's innocence and affirmation of granting Christ's request.

This I believe is a universal forgiveness, but it is only received when one returns to the Father through Christ.

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