Evidence for God from Science

Everyonce in a while I lurk around atheist forums and I wish I could interject and correct some of the VERY wrong information being spread. But I have a feeling I'd just be spat on. Is there any good that can come of posting on such forums? Anyone ever done it?

It is a bad idea. A very bad idea. Even debating atheists who show up here is a bad idea. By all means, engage an atheist one-on-one in person but on the web, forget about it.

Been there, done that.

FL

Thanks FL, and that was kind of my hunch.

Can you expand on that a little though? Is it because they whipped your butt with superior logic (I don't actually think that) or because they just resort to insults (seems to be the trend I see out there)? I hate seeing the blind leading the blind away. I fear for the person wondering about God and reading what they say and take it as truth, when it's very clearly not. Hard to let it go, even though you're probably right.

You can debate a person that has made up their mind.

ryanbouma wrote:Thanks FL, and that was kind of my hunch.

Can you expand on that a little though? Is it because they whipped your butt with superior logic (I don't actually think that) or because they just resort to insults (seems to be the trend I see out there)? I hate seeing the blind leading the blind away. I fear for the person wondering about God and reading what they say and take it as truth, when it's very clearly not. Hard to let it go, even though you're probably right.

None of the above. I was an atheist until my 42nd year, and a vile atheist like the kind who post on atheist Forums until I was in my mid-30s. I attended what I now call ''atheist church'' where like-minded people would get together every Wednesday and listen to taped lectures by atheist gurus. ''Atheist church'' lives on - in my opinion - in atheist forums; they certainly do have their regular attendees! Unfortunately, the decorum of taped lectures by scholars and the polite discussion that followed has given way to the fiendishness you now can read for yourself in any atheist forum: swearing, insults, and haughtiness.

Atheism is first and foremost a hatred of God:

Romans 8:7, James 4:4... Moreover, atheists are too blind to see, too blasphemous and unrepentant to recognize God no matter what He does, see Matthew 11:17-19. This disdain of the biblical God is evidence of a person's foolishness. God confirms that unbelievers are fools, Ps 14:1.

The people you'll engage with on an atheist website are not seekers of truth* though they pretend they are. By engaging an atheist on line, you are giving him the opportunity to heap even more wrath upon himself. You may be certain that he will belittle God, God's Church, Jesus, the saints, the prophets and the Bible. Imagine: if he were to suddenly die just after you gave him a chance to spew his venom, he would be judged for this additional sin.

The situation is different person-to-person. The atheist will listen to what you have to say and will not be influenced by crowd pressure: he won't feel like he has to prove to athiest onlookers that he's one of them.

I know Jac3510 has posted on atheist websites; hopefully, he will chime in.

FL

*actually, atheists are among the most irrational people around, many believing in the likelyhood of intelligent extraterrestrial life, UFOs, multiple universes...all these - and more! - without the slightest shred of evidence.

ryanbouma wrote:Everyonce in a while I lurk around atheist forums and I wish I could interject and correct some of the VERY wrong information being spread. But I have a feeling I'd just be spat on. Is there any good that can come of posting on such forums? Anyone ever done it?

You'll find 99% of posters conglomerate around 1% who are considered all-wise.

The 99% ridicule you and backup the 1% who actually spend time providing responses.

It is the 1% you want to challenge and gain the respect of if you wish to participate on largely secular forums in debate.

The 99% will follow the 1% so if they 1% praise you, then you'll have a tentatively good reputation to perhaps be listened to occasionally.

But, like Atheists who post here walk a line, you'll need to walk a line there too -- not only to conform to the board rules but if you wish to maintain a level of respect.

Ultimately though, you'll need a thick skin and should be able to put up with senseless jibes and ad hominems.

Lots of good advice in this thread. I'd ask you what your purpose is. If it's to go to save them from hell, then while your intentions are highly noble, don't bother. The chances are astronomically against you, and all you are likely to do is make people (including yourself) angry. That may sound like I'm putting down evangelism. I'm not. At all. I'm saying that evangelism is like anything else--there is a season and a way to go about it. For instance, I suspect that you wouldn't object if I said that it probably isn't the best idea to go standing on the corner of a busy street with a bullhorn and shouting at the passersby that if they don't believe in Jesus they are going to Hell. Why? Because you just see that doesn't work. Real, biblical evangelism is, for the most part, relational, not drive by.

Think about atheists and agnostics who come here and apply the golden rule. Do you want them coming here and blasting your faith? Is that effective? Do you appreciate or respect them? Of course not. On the other hand, if they come and are genuinely interested in your faith--not even necessarily because they are interested in conversion, but perhaps for their own reasons--then the conversations become much more amiable.

As FL noted, I've spent a lot of time on atheist boards. I've enjoyed it tremendously in the past, but that's because when I'm there, I'm not having "the atheist debate." As I said on another thread recently, that debate bores me. First off, when I go, I go because I have time for extended conversation. I haven't had that a year or so, so I haven't been in a year or so. But when I have, I go because I see it as an experiment (or experience?) in human nature. Apologetics are fine, but I have a more personal interest in the philosophy underlying the apologetics. As such, I enjoy discussing the underlying philosophical issues--the worldview questions. I know I'm not going to get any agreement, but for me, the point of the conversation isn't to get agreement. It's to clarify and crystallize the issues.

Beyond that, if you decide to go play with them, a few other odds and ends, some of which has already been mentioned:

1. Spend a lot of time lurking and figure out who the ringleaders are. Spend your time talking to them, because they're the ones everybody listens to anyway.
2. Remember that on the off chance you do have an impact, it almost certainly will not be on any of the posters, but on lurkers who just browse the forum.
3. Be extremely respectful, even in--and especially in--the face of blatant personal attacks. Don't be fake, but be respectful. You are in their house; respect their rules.
4. Do not--I repeat, do not--make your case at the expense of other Christians. If you come in with the argument, "That's not real Christianity! Let me tell you how it really is!" then you'll lose all credibility immediately. Everyone does that, and it just plays into their "Christianity(tm)" argument. You don't have to answer for everything done and said that is wrong. That's key. When you say, "Well that's not real Christianity," you are effectively trying to answer for all of that wrong by saying the answer is that the wrongs weren't born out of real faith. That's just not effective, and frankly, you wouldn't say it in front of all those other Christians. No one wants to be thrown under the bus.
5. Ask more questions, make less arguments. That should flow out of a recognition that the atheist forum is a place for you to learn.
6. Have fun. Get to know them as people. Don't let every post be about why their worldview is wrong.

All that is to say, if you are going to do it, then do it right. Find a board and become a member of that community. That's very, very hard to do when the community is built around atheism. If you can do it, you'll learn a lot. If you can't, don't bother.

In general, then, I'd say don't do it. Frankly, there's just not a lot of good to come out of it. If you are just that special type of person who really is fascinated by atheism and wants to understand how the people think and can listen to the vulgarity without becoming cross and don't feel the need to preach and find an honest exchange of ideas sufficient and edifying, then you might derive some benefit from it. But shy of that, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. You're going into someone else's house and telling them they are wrong about a deeply sensitive and emotional issue. Remember that atheism is, in the end, a spiritual and emotional issue, not an intellectual one (all of their arguments notwithstanding). As FL noted, it's a hatred for God. Just really think about that before you engage--you're asking them to accept something they fundamentally hate. That won't end well, and the result will be a lot of personal attacks. If you an survive the onslaught and show yourself reasonable enough, then some day--after several hundred posts and several months of exposure--you could come to be accepted as the board's token Christian. And they'll be fine with that. The question is, will you be?

Probably a more fruitful alternative would be to find a local philosophy club and join. Those are actually pretty fun, and they are in person, and in person, people tend to be more respectful and willing to listen.

tl;dr -- what FL, K, and Paul said.

I have debated and discussed with atheists on a few websites, outside of "militant" atheists, most are nice and open, even if they have made up their minds.
How much you can debate them depends of they are more scientific or philosophically "atheistic".
I think that atheists that are so because they don't have proof of god are great to debate and discuss with BUT those that have a hatred for God ( or religion more correctly) tend to be so focuses on what THEY KNOW TO BE TRUE about God/relgion, that even if you point out their obvious errors, they don't care.

Some great responses. Thanks to all.

I've lurked around on a few of the atheist boards, and generally felt they share bad information, but I really felt compelled when I saw someone quote the scripture about Jesus saying forsake mother father brother etc for me. There was lots of other slander going on, but he used an odd translation (probably old king james) that said hate your mother, etc. So he was saying Christians are supposed to hate their family. It bothered me that this was out of context and if someone was genuinely wanting to learn about the Christianity, might read that and be turned off of what the Bible says. I thought I'll register and simply point out that's not what that passage is saying, politely. But felt it might be a bad idea. So I came here to see what all of you thought.

I think I generally agree with you all that it's not the right idea. I'm impressed how many of you guys have stories like, ' I was an atheist for 30 years and then found Christ by truly searching for the truth...'. I really appreciate the perspective you guys can provide, because I've been a Christian my whole life. I've gone through my own seeking period, not just pushed on me by my parents. But always been a Christian. I told my wife last night that I feel like the faith of those raised in non-Christian homes is more genuine, even though I know that's not true. It just feels that way, because you have a whole other perspective I'll never have.

So thank you, I'll accept all your advice, and stay away for now

I would suggest to rather help your surrounding, people around you. Hopefully those behind the web has also some around them.

My two cents.

ryanbouma wrote:Everyonce in a while I lurk around atheist forums and I wish I could interject and correct some of the VERY wrong information being spread. But I have a feeling I'd just be spat on. Is there any good that can come of posting on such forums?

Yes. You can do what you wish you could do, correct some of the wrong information. Of course you would be attacked but there is always the chance someone might be influenced by what you say. It would probably be best to simply post correct information and not become involved in any kind of prolonged debate.

Anyone ever done it?

I am registered on thethinkingatheist.com but I don't post there very often.

In addition to posting on the forum you can learn about the people there and spend time praying for them.

theophilus wrote:I am registered on thethinkingatheist.com but I don't post there very often.

I went and looked at that site. The ''thinking'' in thethinkingatheist is a lie.

theophilus wrote: You can [go to an atheist forum to] correct some of the wrong information.

Do you think that going to a KKK forum to correct their thinking about minorities would have any chance of success?

FL

Isn't there something in the Scriptures about not "playing" with the enemy? Casting your pearls before swine? I'm not saying that atheists are swine, but the point would be that it would be as useless an effort as it would to be casting pearls into a pig pen. Does that make sense? I would rather spend the little time I have on the internet to gaining insight into the Christian faith than to "dance with the devil".

I thought about doing this exact same thing before. All of the reasons which have been given already are more than reason enough not to join an atheist forum. For me personally, it was a case of discerning what was the most wise thing for me to do. In other words, would I be more of an influence on the atheists or would I be more greatly influenced by the lies of the enemy? The decision wasn't a difficult one once I put an ounce of thought into it. I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and that His power is completely limitless but at the same time, you and I are not all-powerful or limitless and thus are vulnerable to attack from the enemy - I certainly am not going to open another door for satan to try and work his way into my life.

just a thought

ClassicalTeacher wrote:Isn't there something in the Scriptures about not "playing" with the enemy? Casting your pearls before swine?

Yes, and the Bible also says we are to go into all of the world to preach the gospel.