Evidence for God from Science

Understand, I'm not full Atheist, nor am I really on the fence Agnostic. I believe in something higher than us, but I do not seek answers from a book, I follow my own sense of morals. I follow what my conscious tell me is right, and if I feel I have wronged someone, I do not ask for forgiveness, as I feel actions speak louder than words. I prefer to make amends by doing right by people, rather than begging for forgiveness and promising to do better. My morals tell me this is the better thing to do, and have not made me feel I had to turn to the bible. I was raised going to Sunday school, and I knew a lot more about the bible when I was a kid than I do now. As I grew, I learned there was no Santa or Easter Bunny, and my belief in a magical being went away.

As I grew older, I learned the usual theories of evolution and all the proof that backs it up. I've heard many of the arguments behind it. I may not be a religious person, but there are certain aspects of various religions I do find interesting, but I wouldn't say it has anything to do with whether I believe it. I learned the odds of life stemming from nothing, but I also learned the odds that something else may have been involved are actually greater. Now if that something else was a tall 50 foot man in the sky? I don't think so, if there is any legitimacy behind the bible, chances are that details were modified or omitted much like the dinosaurs in order for people of the time to comprehend it.

I understand that bible quotes are important when an argument is questioning something the bible says. I've read that article.

But what I fail to understand is why believe an ancient book? There are so many other books, all with equally convincing circular arguments. What makes one any more reputable than the others? If the bible itself is what's being questioned, how does it get defended? The contents could have easily been doctored to reflect cultural norms of the past. Is there any proof of the legitimacy of the bible, without looking in the bible?

No, there is none. Is there a way to know you were you, besides your birth certificate, 3000 years in future from today? No, so if a future human looked at your Birth certificate and questioned its legitimacy, where else you do you think he could look?

Welcome to the board, GlaciusTS

GlaciusTS wrote:

I believe in something higher than us, but I do not seek answers from a book, I follow my own sense of morals. I follow what my conscious tell me is right, and if I feel I have wronged someone, I do not ask for forgiveness, as I feel actions speak louder than words.

Why do you think you believe in "something higher than us"? Do you think you believe because you were taught that at church when you were younger?

Hypothetically speaking, if God doesn't exist, why do you think you would have a conscience?

neo-x wrote:No, there is none. Is there a way to know you were you, besides your birth certificate, 3000 years in future from today? No, so if a future human looked at your Birth certificate and questioned its legitimacy, where else you do you think he could look?

Internet records?

Good point though. Thing is, my birth certificate isn't full of holes and contradictions. I'm a mere observer of religions, but it's interesting to see the unbreakable string that supports christianity is the fact that nobody can prove or disprove the legitimacy of the bible.

RickD wrote:Welcome to the board, GlaciusTS

GlaciusTS wrote:

I believe in something higher than us, but I do not seek answers from a book, I follow my own sense of morals. I follow what my conscious tell me is right, and if I feel I have wronged someone, I do not ask for forgiveness, as I feel actions speak louder than words.

Why do you think you believe in "something higher than us"? Do you think you believe because you were taught that at church when you were younger?

Hypothetically speaking, if God doesn't exist, why do you think you would have a conscience?

Actually, it's not because of church that I believe in a higher power. It's moreso statistics. How does a lower less intelligent creature, such as an ant, comprehend a whale? It's doesn't. Under normal circumstances, the two would never even meet. And even if they did, the ant simply couldn't fathom what is in front of it.

What are the odds that we are as good as it gets? The odds that sentience could exist beyond our own realm of understanding is pretty high. But does an ant have all of the answers? No. Does it try to find them? No. Ants are organised, strong, and every bit as successful on this planet as humans, if not moreso. Who say's we need all the answers?

GlaciusTS wrote:

neo-x wrote:No, there is none. Is there a way to know you were you, besides your birth certificate, 3000 years in future from today? No, so if a future human looked at your Birth certificate and questioned its legitimacy, where else you do you think he could look?

Internet records?

Good point though. Thing is, my birth certificate isn't full of holes and contradictions. I'm a mere observer of religions, but it's interesting to see the unbreakable string that supports christianity is the fact that nobody can prove or disprove the legitimacy of the bible.

internet records? no, how would I know they are legitimate or they simply did not just copy paste information that was on your birth certifacte? Remember I am not trying to find you as a real person. I am questioning the legitmiacy of your birth certificate? What is there to support that some of the details might not be wrong?

Well, for one it would include official things that couldn't be found on my birth certificate, things I have said personally, linked to many people that I knew and have equal evidence to back up their existance, interactions with all of those people. Government websites have my information. And there is video evidence of my existence on youtube attached to an account with my personal info on it, facebook records dating back god only knows how long, government records will probably be stored in a database, family tree records, doctor's records of my mother's pregnancy, tax records, etc. These sites may or may not exist in 3000 years, or maybe they'll become multi-billion dollar corporations, but there will likely be internet records kept forever for historical purposes and for our descendants to look us up and see what their ancestors were like. But I suppose you could question the legitimacy of all of it in the end.... scientists could have direct proof and publish it in the newspaper and suddenly you question the legitimacy of the newspaper you're reading.

Thing is... my birth certificate is simply saying a human was born at a certain time, and there are ways to tell an objects age and it's authenticity through careful examination and chemical testing, you know it came from an official government group, the same people who have records of my identification. People would have no reason to question my birth certificate because it doesn't state anything supernatural, and millions of people's lives don't revolve around it. There is no reason for someone to create a fake birth certificate for someone who existed 3000 years ago. But there's plenty reason for someone to make a book that says if you do something bad, you get in trouble, no matter how much you covered it up.

that is really besides the point. the main thing is if you want to, 3000 from now you can question the legitimacy of any source. because then you will be speculating as you are doing now you are speculating that someone would have reason to forge a document.

GlaciusTS wrote:

RickD wrote:Welcome to the board, GlaciusTS

GlaciusTS wrote:

I believe in something higher than us, but I do not seek answers from a book, I follow my own sense of morals. I follow what my conscious tell me is right, and if I feel I have wronged someone, I do not ask for forgiveness, as I feel actions speak louder than words.

Why do you think you believe in "something higher than us"? Do you think you believe because you were taught that at church when you were younger?

Hypothetically speaking, if God doesn't exist, why do you think you would have a conscience?

Actually, it's not because of church that I believe in a higher power. It's moreso statistics. How does a lower less intelligent creature, such as an ant, comprehend a whale? It's doesn't. Under normal circumstances, the two would never even meet. And even if they did, the ant simply couldn't fathom what is in front of it.

What are the odds that we are as good as it gets? The odds that sentience could exist beyond our own realm of understanding is pretty high. But does an ant have all of the answers? No. Does it try to find them? No. Ants are organised, strong, and every bit as successful on this planet as humans, if not moreso. Who say's we need all the answers?

So, you're using reason. I think you're on the right track.

GlaciusTS wrote: There is no reason for someone to create a fake birth certificate for someone who existed 3000 years ago. But there's plenty reason for someone to make a book that says if you do something bad, you get in trouble, no matter how much you covered it up.

First, it may be worthwhile to consider what it means to "do something bad," and how you know that. But beyond that...

If this is what you think the Bible, in its totality, affirms, then your reservations are understandable. But that's not what the scriptures affirm. The wages of sin are death-- not "getting in trouble," death. Christ came into the world not to make bad men good, but to make dead men live. "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:1-9)

As to your original post: I think your questions are good ones, and I encourage you to look at evidence outside of the scriptures for corroboration of the scriptures. This is wholly consistent with the Christian tradition in general, which has looked variously to philosophy, natural sciences, archeology, and non-Christian sources for corroboration and clarification of the scriptures. It is important, however, to understand what the Bible is; it is not a single document, it is a compilation of dozens of documents written by many authors over the course of more than a dozen centuries. These documents were compiled into a single collection precisely because they corroborate each other; it makes no sense, then, to dismiss them because of a lack of "external" corroborating documentation, for the only reason one can speak of the "internal" consistency (or inconsistency, for that matter) is because these separate documents were put together ex post facto because they were found to have convergent validity.

Also, I don't know if you meant to insinuate otherwise, but you will find essentially no Christian with any degree of learning who thinks God is a 50 foot man in the sky (or anywhere else, for that matter).

The bible is legit in regards to why it was created.
Now, WHY it was created is THE question.
Some believe the bible was written to give witness to God's plan though Jesus.
Others view it as a theological work of a ANE people.
Others view it as divine and inspired writings ( of course that leads us to defining what inspired means).
Etc, etc.

To me the Bible points the way to Christ who is THE WORD of God.
Written by man, yes, but in need of "redemption" like the rest of God's creation, a redemption that is only in Christ.
The bible POINTS the finger to God and Christ BUT, if we concentrate too much on the finger, we truly miss all the heavenly glory.