Evidence for God from Science

Hello friends (and enemies). Haven't been around to post much. I've been dealing with a terrible situation at our congregation. Jac knows a lot of the details, and all I can say is it is sinister and involves our senior pastor and board of elders. Need prayer that God would breakthrough spiritual bonds. Fear and doubt prevail while truth is considered a dirty word. Toughest thing I've ever been through in my life. Can barely even type this.
Thank you all.

Will lift them all up, jlay. Been through this and well know just how excruciating it can be. And no doubt the devil wants and is doing his best to fan the flames of gossip, division and hurtfulness, not just between the leadership but also within the greater body. But accountability requires trust, verification and complete openness amongst leaders - and a willingness to face the truth of root matters, in the spirit of love, healing, reconciliation and righteousness, no matter how painful that truth might be. Sweeping ANYTHING under the rug (under the illusion it will bring a lasting peace), whether internally in the back room or if serious (or unless totally unnecessary/more damaging) from the greater body, will only allow things to fester and continue to erode and infect in a steady drip, drip, drip of rancor and division.

jlay wrote:Hello friends (and enemies). Haven't been around to post much. I've been dealing with a terrible situation at our congregation. Jac knows a lot of the details, and all I can say is it is sinister and involves our senior pastor and board of elders. Need prayer that God would breakthrough spiritual bonds. Fear and doubt prevail while truth is considered a dirty word. Toughest thing I've ever been through in my life. Can barely even type this.
Thank you all.

J, my prayers for your church and the leaders. I hope truth prevails.

It is always important for us to understand that at ANY point, any of us can stumble ( or be stumbled) and that no one is beyond the touch of our adversary.
We should never expect any person to be beyond corruption.
That said, when we or one of our loved ones fall, the pain we feel is real and can't be lessened with mere words.
Our Lord gives us the strength to deal with adversity, in HIM we have our rest and in HIM we have our strength.
My prayers are with you my friend, may you find the strength you need to deal with these times.

Ok folks.
If any of you guys are interested in reading my 20 page paper on this saga, it is posted here. I would only ask that you not repost, or share at this time as the church is still dealing with all sorts of drama.
http://blountlays.files.wordpress.com/2 ... 25-131.pdf

You can't imagine the time I've poured into this. Extremely traumatic and many people hurt. The senior pastor resigned from the podium this past Sunday, and verified to the entire congregation the problems I address.
Many special thanks to Jac (Chris Morrison) and Bart Breen.

I truly believe that God prepared me for this time. Bart had posted some articles on the dangers of neo-fundementalism just after this senior pastor being called. Here is the thread: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36723 A few months later I was emailing Bart for those links.

Curiosity was killing me, so thanks for letting us see the write up. You did a great job. Don't be surprised if they're calling for you to be the new pastor!

Speaking from experience, pastors like that can literally destroy families. I'm glad you spoke up.

jlay=Joel Lay. You finally have unraveled the mystery... Sorry, I'm going on very little sleep last night, and I feel a little loopy.

JLay, that was an extraordinary letter, and I greatly applaud your courage in sending it. It is remarkable just how often such similar scenarios are played out in churches everywhere. People in leadership become so certain that THEIR vision and understanding of things is the ONLY and RIGHTEOUS way, and that THEIR ways, methods, desires and beliefs are akin to those of God Himself. Somewhere, they become convinced that their ideas and goals are as unchallengeable as the very words of Scripture. And, at that point, control begins to become consolidated, hand-picked lieutenants are installed and rewarded, lists are drawn - those that are with them and those that are not. And thus the paring of sides will begin accordingly and stealthily, and will grow ever more aggressive over time. And, as you so well explained, these things cannot go on under the bright light of constant openness and scrutiny. This is especially true of my experience with those who take a very high view of determinism. They become so convinced that they are doing the very will of God, as, in their minds, they have morphed together what THEY want and have ultimately equated it with what GOD wants. And they are so convinced that those in opposition to their schemes and goals are viewed as heretics, and as opposers of even Christ Himself.

To prevent what JLay describes, I find the information in the link below very good advice for churches:

http://transparentchurch.org/gpage.html

And from that, in the "number 6" outtake from it (below), is perhaps the most preventatively important thing to consider - HOW the church is setup, the hierarchy of leadership, and how to build accountability into the system - between the elders and pastor and between the leadership and the congregation. The pastor CEO model is extremely flawed and can lead to many serious problems.

6. The pastor will not delegate - This is an issue of trust. The early churches utilized deacons (the only other ordained office besides pastor) to oversee the benevolence purse, by all indications the only money the church kept on hand, so pastors (also called elders) could concentrate on spiritual matters (Acts 6:1-7). The recent trend of 'Pastor as CEO' is unbiblical and based upon modern secular business practices. The early churches were not led by dictators - it was a collective effort which actively involved the congregations.

My own church has a two-year rotation of elders (who are nominated by the congregation and also voted on) that make all decisions along WITH the pastor - as his vote is but one of many.

Well, I've always taken for granted the relationships forged here.
I have a much greater love for all u guys. (And gals) Thanks for your prayers and support.
I'm gonna tell you that the little spats we have are small in the greater scope of the kingdom.
Without this board I would not have been prepared to write that letter.
Joel

I was also looking back thru emails and pmails on this situation dating back well over a year ago.

Jlay, I looked at the church's website, and saw the pastor's picture. I couldn't help noticing how young he is. Either that, or I'm just old.

I just can't see one that young being mature enough to handle that position.

Yes, very young. But that was one if the smaller issues. Being a sociopath isn't age specific.

jlay wrote:Yes, very young. But that was one if the smaller issues. Being a sociopath isn't age specific.

Oh My!!!!

So tell me, have they nominated you as the replacement yet?

Hardly. Speaking out has its consequences.

Jlay,

Reading through that letter (which I did in full and carefully) was painful and at the same time I was also proud of you and your willingness to speak out. I'm glad my past writings were a little helpful to you and had no idea the depth of what you were addressing in your own life and ministry. Many of the things you've mentioned were parts of what sent me away from the SBC back in the 1980s as I saw much of it developing and coming. Since then, as you know. I've pretty much left formal ministry although I've by no means been released from the calling and gifts I believe God has given me.

It's hard going through it however at the time. I remember some of the anguish I felt at times in different churches and situations as I wrestled with what was true, what was Christlike and what real leadership looks like as a servant rather than hierarchical offices and the belief that we're called to as ministers to lead churches into our understandings as opposed to loving others and serving them as Christ and allowing change to come about relationally.

I don't know anything of the situation but what you've written but it seems to me that you've given a great deal of thought and prayer to your words and actions and whatever else may come of it, that is an important thing for you and I believe you'll be a better man for it.

Thanks for sharing and I will pray for you.

Bart

Jlay, how's it been going at your church recently?