Evidence for God from Science

Thats right.Nonbelievers and atheist alike. Lets ignore the fact that the Bible Makes it pretty clear that Good deeds alone do not get you into heaven but only through Christ.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... ostpopular


So basically the Pope as openly turned himself into an enemy of God

I think we should not speculate.

I mean the OSAS group says the same thing in one way, if 10 people believed in Christ, really trusted Christ once and then left faith, they are still going to heaven.

but also these are words of the faith,

"At mass on the 22nd, he said:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

If I had a broken church and a hate filled world who hates that church for many many wrongs, I'll probably say the same thing too. I am not saying he is right, but I understand why he said something like that.

If you carefully read the quotes from the Pope he says no such thing. He basically say that everyone can be good people and everyone has a chance at redemption. He chose his words very carefully, I think he wants to open lines of communication between all denominations and non believers.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:If you carefully read the quotes from the Pope he says no such thing. He basically say that everyone can be good people and everyone has a chance at redemption. He chose his words very carefully, I think he wants to open lines of communication between all denominations and non believers.

I agree. The Pope only said what any Christian already knows: Christ died for the sins of everyone, and all may be redeemed. Nothing new here.

What is more interesting is the way the media has understood the Pope's words. More than anything it reveals the media's biblical illiteracy and a desire to mock this particular Christian leader.

FL

If we look at John Chapter 5 we see that the writer mentions 2 resurrections and states that:
Believers will not be judged
There will be a resurrection of those that, because of their good deeds, will be saved and those who have done evil will be punished:

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

and

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It may be based on this that the Pope is commenting on the chance of all who do good deeds ( even those that do not believe/follow Christ) to be saved.

PaulSacramento wrote:It may be based on this that the Pope is commenting on the chance of all who do good deeds ( even those that do not believe/follow Christ) to be saved.

You are commenting on John 5, specifically verses 24-28. The Pope made no such faux-pas as to include all heathen who do ''good deeds'' as eligible for heaven. That isn't biblical and it doesn't line up with the Roman Catholic Church's view of salvation.

The only chance people have of heaven is to accept Jesus as Lord: just what Jesus said to Nicodemus. and nothing else, Jn 3:5. Good deeds are optional for the saved. For the lost, the rewards of good deeds are for this life only. After that, unbelievers are toast.

FL

The RCC view of salvation is based on it's Catechisim:

IN BRIEF

1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

1052 "We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ's grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies" (Paul VI, CPG § 28).

1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

1054 Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

1055 By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death" (GCD 69), also called "hell."

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26).

1059 "The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ's tribunal to render an account of their own deeds" (Council of Lyons II [1274]:DS 859; cf. DS 1549).

1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

I think to state categorically that the RCC teaches that ONLY believers are saved is, well, incorrect.

PaulSacramento wrote:I think to state categorically that the RCC teaches that ONLY believers are saved is, well, incorrect.

I looked up the entries you referenced, above. You are misleading yourself by quoting them here to back up your assertion that the RCC believes anyone can get into heaven on their good works alone. I also have a copy of Catechism of the Catholic Church and I can't - for the life of me! - understand how you came up with that list of off-topic entries.

Look up Salvation in the thematic index and go from there.

FL

Hey FL, you wanna hear a good Catholic joke?

RickD wrote:Hey FL, you wanna hear a good Catholic joke?

Not now...It will have to wait until I finish my bag of chips and Coke.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

RickD wrote:Hey FL, you wanna hear a good Catholic joke?

Not now...It will have to wait until I finish my bag of chips and Coke.

FL

Is that an inside joke? Maybe you could share it with the rest of us.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think to state categorically that the RCC teaches that ONLY believers are saved is, well, incorrect.

I looked up the entries you referenced, above. You are misleading yourself by quoting them here to back up your assertion that the RCC believes anyone can get into heaven on their good works alone. I also have a copy of Catechism of the Catholic Church and I can't - for the life of me! - understand how you came up with that list of off-topic entries.

Look up Salvation in the thematic index and go from there.

FL

Oh Yes, it is quite true that, certain parts of the Catechism state certain things, such as:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

While others seem to contradict this , such as:

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

In t his case ( as an example), we have on catechism stating that sacraments ARE a necessity and in the other stating that a person CAN be saved even if they were not baptized ( a sacrament).
Of course there is a "proviso" in that, which is a person would have been baptized IF they knew/understood its' importance.

When I asked my 2nd year theology professor who was a RCC scholar about the seeming contradiction in regards to salvation, he said ( and this was also reiterated by my local priest) that there are those catechism that are applicable to members of the RCC and those that apply to believers OUTSIDE the church.
Both also said that it is quite clear that GOD and no man decided who is and who is not saved.

Another example:
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

In short, the RCC has the view that:
Salvation is a gift from God through Christ and only God decided who is and who is not.
The RCC believes that Baptisim and the other sacraments are needed for salvation BUT that God takes into account the desire of those that are NOT under the church and have NOT followed the sacraments to decide if they are saved.
The RCC believes that Baptism is needed for salvation BUT if a person is NOT baptized because they were not aware of how crucial it is, that God can still save them.
The RCC believes that all have potential to be saved but that some willingly chose not to be
(1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance").

And I didn't say that

You are misleading yourself by quoting them here to back up your assertion that the RCC believes anyone can get into heaven on their good works alone

.
I said that they believe they have a CHANCE since only God decided who is and who isn't.
Its not just about good deeds of course but the intent behind them and the desire.

PaulSacramento wrote:And I didn't say that

You are misleading yourself by quoting them here to back up your assertion that the RCC believes anyone can get into heaven on their good works alone

.
I said that they believe they have a CHANCE since only God decided who is and who isn't.
Its not just about good deeds of course but the intent behind them and the desire.

OK, understood. I'll look up all the entries you referenced and will get back to you.

RickD wrote:Is that an inside joke? Maybe you could share it with the rest of us.

I went to a Baptist Church where they had me commune with grape juice...I understood why when I found out the Pastor went to Bob Jones University. At another Church, I communed with real wine and a piece of bread! GREAT PLACE!

Which religion gives a bag of chips and a Coke?

FL