Evidence for God from Science

Has anybody done any serious studying of this:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst ... ciano.html

I know some of you really have gotten into the study of the shroud, and I was wondering if any of you have studied this "miracle".

I've seen this before but can't say that anybody thinks much of it for both scientific and theological reasons.

Scientifically, it may well be that there is a bit of blood and a bit of heart in the little capsule. There is, of course, absolutely nothing to suggest that it was ever anything else. The claim that each of the five globules of blood individually weigh the same as all of it together is wholly unfounded.

Theologically, there is a whole philosophy built around transubstantiation and the difference between substance and accidence, which this relic undermines. It also suggests that the blood is Jesus's actual blood and the flesh Jesus's actual flesh, which would be a great deal more important than mere evidence of transubstantiation. The last people supposedly to investigate it were not in a position to test its DNA or to carbon date it. Now we are, but I don't think we can be bothered.

Finally, the expression "officially recognised by the Catholic Church" crops up here and there in connection with this and other supposed relics and apparitions. It should be noted that 'recognised' in this context, rarely means 'declared to be true,' and 'the Catholic Church' rarely means the Vatican. Local bishops, as keen as anybody for popularity, recognised all sorts of things right up to the 19th century and maybe beyond. http://www.russianstore.com, one of my favourite browsing sites, offers well attested, heavily authenticated and scrupulously verified (by the Catholic Church of course) relics of Jesus's swaddling clothes, manger, robe, shroud and cross, and any amount of stuff from the Virgin Mary's clothes closet to boot. Sadly, I find that these delicacies are no longer on open sale on the internet, but can be discovered by entering things like "shroud" and "site:russianstore.com" into Google.

I'm going to be in the Boston area by mid-July. Would you like me to buy you one of those gizmos that toasts an image of the Virgin on a slice of bread?

You could wow all your friends by claiming it was a miracle!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I'm going to be in the Boston area by mid-July. Would you like me to buy you one of those gizmos that toasts an image of the Virgin on a slice of bread?

You could wow all your friends by claiming it was a miracle!

FL

No, but you could bring me Barney Frank's head on a platter!! JK, Rick, you so bad, you naughty

hughfarey wrote:I've seen this before but can't say that anybody thinks much of it for both scientific and theological reasons.

Scientifically, it may well be that there is a bit of blood and a bit of heart in the little capsule. There is, of course, absolutely nothing to suggest that it was ever anything else. The claim that each of the five globules of blood individually weigh the same as all of it together is wholly unfounded.

Theologically, there is a whole philosophy built around transubstantiation and the difference between substance and accidence, which this relic undermines. It also suggests that the blood is Jesus's actual blood and the flesh Jesus's actual flesh, which would be a great deal more important than mere evidence of transubstantiation. The last people supposedly to investigate it were not in a position to test its DNA or to carbon date it. Now we are, but I don't think we can be bothered.

Finally, the expression "officially recognised by the Catholic Church" crops up here and there in connection with this and other supposed relics and apparitions. It should be noted that 'recognised' in this context, rarely means 'declared to be true,' and 'the Catholic Church' rarely means the Vatican. Local bishops, as keen as anybody for popularity, recognised all sorts of things right up to the 19th century and maybe beyond. http://www.russianstore.com, one of my favourite browsing sites, offers well attested, heavily authenticated and scrupulously verified (by the Catholic Church of course) relics of Jesus's swaddling clothes, manger, robe, shroud and cross, and any amount of stuff from the Virgin Mary's clothes closet to boot. Sadly, I find that these delicacies are no longer on open sale on the internet, but can be discovered by entering things like "shroud" and "site:russianstore.com" into Google.

I don't know where you're getting your information on the Miracle of Lanciano, but it is true about the globules of blood.

Here is a link to the facts about this miracle: http://infallible-catholic.blogspot.com ... italy.html

ClassicalTeacher wrote:

hughfarey wrote:The claim that each of the five globules of blood individually weigh the same as all of it together is wholly unfounded.

I don't know where you're getting your information on the Miracle of Lanciano, but it is true about the globules of blood.

I got my information from several sites similar to the one you listed. I didn't believe what they said. They do not say how they get their information. There are nine asterisked statements in bold derived from the scientific investigations of 1970-1981, but the bit about the weight of the blood is not among them.

hughfarey wrote:

ClassicalTeacher wrote:

hughfarey wrote:The claim that each of the five globules of blood individually weigh the same as all of it together is wholly unfounded.

I don't know where you're getting your information on the Miracle of Lanciano, but it is true about the globules of blood.

I got my information from several sites similar to the one you listed. I didn't believe what they said. They do not say how they get their information. There are nine asterisked statements in bold derived from the scientific investigations of 1970-1981, but the bit about the weight of the blood is not among them.

I read a book many years ago about this miracle of Lanciano. I don't remember the name of the book, and I'm sure it is out of print by now, but it discussed all of the tests done on both the host and the blood globules. I remember even back then that they made the claim for the weight of the blood globules. I seem to remember, too, that at some point, they did a blood-typing on the host (I think it was the host) and it turned out to be type "AB" the "universal recipient". This is the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin. I'm sure there is proof of the tests somewhere, but I just haven't the foggiest where. I'll do a little researching later this weekend.