Evidence for God from Science

Just wanted to voice what is a great frustration to me about apologetics. So many Christians just don't seem to get what they are/should be all about. And the more relational/emotional they are, the more likely it seems that they simply don't understand their potential effectiveness. So often Christians wrongly believe that apologetics is simply the cobbling together of various intellectual reasonings, or that its typical subjects aren't really much relevant. I can really see this attitude towards them in my BIL. As his witnessing style is almost totally relational/emotional appeal, he sees very little value in apologetics for people wired as he is, or when approaching such wired people.

But the truth is that apologetics is merely utilizing information from a variety of sources to explain/reinforce/provide evidences for the truths found in the Bible. Whether one is more of a feeler than a thinker or whether one is attempting to explain spiritual matters to people who don't tend to process things analytically/rationally, apologetics can still be extremely useful in connecting the dots of truth to and within Scripture. The truth has logical connections and people and God made us capable of following those connecting dots when carefully laid out for them. It' not an either/or. Jesus, the Apostles, various prophets and so many Bible figures used many different styles of communicating and explaining, it all depended upon their intended audience. But they all utilized apologetic techniques in various ways, as no matter their preferred personal style, they still incorporated the use of apologetics.

Apologetics certainly has a certain dry and dusty image ... some of it earned, IMO. It should not be an either-or proposition, because real people in the real world are a mix of factual and feelings. Your BIL may run into a problem if he tries witnessing to a well-informed atheist/agnostic or a well-trained Jehovah's witness. OTOH, some one who has specialized in some set of apologetics subjects may be ill-prepared for presenting the Gospel in the context of establishing relationships.

Philip, you reminded me Galileo:
"Galileo Galilei:
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."

I agree, phillip, but I think some of that is our own fault. Our major apologists tend to talk like philosophers and lawyers. I mean, who the heck knows what "objective morality" is? It's very important, yes! But as any good homiletician will tell you, it's better to transform than to inform, and the way to do that is to speak in such a way that you draw people emotionally into the message you are trying to convey. (By the way, I used "homiletician" there just to illustrate the point about the way we talk -- "preacher" gets the same message across for the most part!).

One of the mistakes we've made, I think, is to focus so heavily on the CONTENT of apologetics that we've spent very little time looking either at the way in which we present it on one hand and its place in the Christian life on the other. Regarding the former, as I just noted, we tend to come across as overly intellectual, and whether we like it or not, people just don't care about that (by and large). We need to learn to put the content in deeply relational terms. I mean, think about Jesus. He was a better apologist than all of us put together, and look at the kinds of illustrations He used. Look at how He approached ministry.

Concerning the latter, I think we've tended to make apologetics all about evangelism. And look, it's a great evangelistic tool, so long as we really understand it as pre-evangelistic. But apologists would do very well to focus on the personal application of the truths we discover and teach to our own lives. Again, this is something preachers know instinctively, which is why every single book on sermon preparation you pick up will always have a chapter or two on the importance of preaching to yourself before you preach to your congregation. In my own little book I wrote on apologetics (I give it away for free so that my students have something easy to read and accessible to help them through the heavyweights like Moreland and Craig), I tried to remedy some of this by including a "personal application" section in each chapter. So to just take the one from the first chapter, after discussing the fact that without God, life is meaningless, I go on to write this:

• Consider the words of Ecclesiastes 1:2:“‘Meaningless! Meaningless!’ says the Teacher. ‘Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.’” If God does not exist, could there be truer words? What good is it to live your life for yourself if in the end you only die? In fact, if there is no God, then eventually all of humanity will die so that nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do matters at all. But if God exists, and if we can know Him, then there can be meaning and purpose. What we do can have eternal ramifications. That is why Paul said, “And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him” (Col 1:17, NIV). Our job as Christians is to live for the glory of God. Take a few minutes and look at your own life. Does it have meaning? Are you living for God in everything you do? Is your work, family, and social life glorifying to God? If you are a Christian, every moment can have eternal significance. Nothing has to be meaningless unless you let it be.

I don't at all mean to suggest that little snippets like that are the answer to everything. I just mean to say that personal application will go a LONG way, I think, in remedying the situation you describe. We do have an image problem. The best way to solve the image problem is to change the way we present ourselves. If we want to argue (as we should) that apologetics is not just a matter of the head and that evangelism and discipleship are not JUST a matter of the heart, then we should actually make it a practice of appealing to the whole person--head and heart--in our defense of Scriptural truth; and that ought to start with us. If people can't look at us and see in our lives the application of what we're saying, we may as well not even say it at all.

My $.02 anyway.

Jac, I think you made some excellent points. As if all we are is assembling is a series of clever arguments that MIGHT lead someone to a "head" faith (but not a "heart" one), then we are merely playing our own versions of churchianity. Not to mention that, at the heart of the matter, and especially when it comes to matters relating to belief in God, most people don't have a knowledge problem, but a HEART problem. I mean, how many miracles did the Pharisees and Sadducees see Jesus do, but they still would not have faith. We're still talking today about the ten incredible miracles God freed Israel with, He parts the Red Sea, drowns Pharaoh's army, leads by Cloud and Fire, gives them water and manna in the desert - and how long is Moses out of camp before they are building a Golden Calf? Israel had all the knowledge/proof of God anyone could desire, but for most of them it still did not matter.

My points are several: 1) Apologetics is important and can be powerful when used along with other pre-evangelism/evangelism messages and by showing a sincere concern and love for those it is directed toward; 2) Apologetics can play an important and on-going role in constantly re-enforcing the faith of BELIEVERS; 3) Let's not make apologetics any more nor any less than what its actual potential is - and that is to merely explain information that uses a wide variety of sources, including Scripture itself, to re-enforce and bring enlightenment to the truths found in Scripture; 4) Many of those who are skeptical of the role of apologetics in evangelism tend to totally ignore them and neglect many of its important and helpful pre-evangelism truths - this despite the clear use of constant apologetic messages given by God's prophets, apostles and Jesus Himself (remember Him taking time to walk through the Old Testament to explain how it pointed to Him?); 5) Apologetics are greatly misunderstood by many Christians and they are often clueless of how to use them - and, sadly, many have no desire even to learn about them - this despite the fact that we are told to use them. God gave us many powerful evidences of His existence, of His Incarnation, and of His fingerprints, which are all over this world and that can be found throughout His Creation. And thus we were never called to a BLIND faith, but one rich in powerful witnesses of things knowable, understandable and observable.

A fantastic book on HOW to LISTEN to people and how to help them discover their own false beliefs, for THEMSELVES, by asking them key questions while building relationships is this fantastic book by Norman Geisler - "Conversational Evangelism": http://www.amazon.com/Conversational-Ev ... Evangelism This is not just another "techniques" or "answers" book. I can't recommend it highly enough! If one wants to engage others in evangelism, this is a very important book they should consider.

Finally, Geisler explains in this short article why we are COMMANDED to do apologetics, and details many examples of their use across Scripture: http://normangeisler.net/articles/apolo ... getics.htm

Apologetics challenges the one learning in at least a couple of ways. One is to understand and think through what we believe. For example, try to wrap your mind around the meaning of God being the Creator. Time is one of His creatures ... what does it mean that God is outside of and not limited by time?! Another challenge is to be able to express that deeper (hopefully) knowledge/understanding so that another person can understand it. Without being able to do that, well, that's how that dry and dusty reputation gets earned. There's a multitude of technical terms with precise meanings, but those terms often mean little (or less) to ordinary people.

There's a multitude of technical terms with precise meanings, but those terms often mean little (or less) to ordinary people.

Yep, although useful in the proper setting/context/appropriate audience, I generally hate it when people start throwing around theological and philosophy terminology. Quite a lot I see this happen when someone has a very debatable viewpoint/weak argument, but they try to mask it with bluster and terminology that they think makes their arguments stronger. I see this a lot with younger guys who know just enough about theology to be fairly dangerous.

Jac3510 wrote:But as any good homiletician will tell you, it's better to transform than to inform, and the way to do that is to speak in such a way that you draw people emotionally into the message you are trying to convey.
...
We do have an image problem. The best way to solve the image problem is to change the way we present ourselves. If we want to argue (as we should) that apologetics is not just a matter of the head and that evangelism and discipleship are not JUST a matter of the heart, then we should actually make it a practice of appealing to the whole person--head and heart--in our defense of Scriptural truth; and that ought to start with us. If people can't look at us and see in our lives the application of what we're saying, we may as well not even say it at all.

Nice.

If we are cold who would like to be like us?

my experience is similar. often my fellow evangelists when confronted with a real atheist will simply stumble pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. atheists are the tax collectors and prostitutes of our day. we must engage them. but here is the crux: often their intellectual arguments are skin deep - covering an emotional reason for resisting God.
j

nuthajason wrote:my experience is similar. often my fellow evangelists when confronted with a real atheist will simply stumble pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. atheists are the tax collectors and prostitutes of our day. we must engage them. but here is the crux: often their intellectual arguments are skin deep - covering an emotional reason for resisting God.
j

I think you better change your wording here, no matter whats the case, equating them to tax collectors and prostitutes is not right, plus it means you are better than them and I can challenge you that is not the case. Also its no different than atheists calling us, fools and deluded.

Bottom line, be respectful. You will be measured the same way.

It is indeed better to approach the atheist with warmth and respect. In my case, they hold on to their emotional arguments. Only a few of them ever come into rational discourse but of course it could be different in other places. This doesn't mean one should be ill-prepared either. Let's be ready to give our answers.

~Grey

In my case, they hold on to their emotional arguments. Only a few of them ever come into rational discourse but of course it could be different in other places. This doesn't mean one should be ill-prepared either. Let's be ready to give our answers.

Absolutely true! Perhaps one of my biggest surprises was back when I realized that most agnostics and atheists are merely hiding behind supposed intellectual objections to belief, when in fact their problems are more typically emotional in nature. However, they often don't believe or see this. So, I think, asking thoughtful, respectful questions that may make them aware of this - at least once a closer relationship/friendship has been established that will allow such questions - can be fruitful. Nonetheless, even after becoming aware that their objections are more emotional than rational, they will likely still cling to their supposed intellectual objections to belief. And so we should be prepared to answer those as well. Because if we can answer their rational questions and also help them to realize their emotional hindrances, they might just reconsider their unbelief. It's a long process, but it can be greatly aided by a Christian showing sincere friendship and love - that can blow them away enough to listen to what you are saying about God.