Evidence for God from Science

Hello. I am new to this website and forum but have found it very bible based and so, I am looking for some advice. My soon to be son-in-law was raised in a very dysfunctional and abusive home. When he was 12 he was sent to a Christian boarding school. The leaders of this school stopped going to a traditional church while Corry was there and instead starting having church at home. Their reasoning was that they saw churches being like the money changers in the temple and that they were running churches like businesses. I can understand this reasoning although I disagree with it. The thing is, that this couple were the only godly example Corry had. Fast forward 20 years. Corry does not live like I would think a Christian should. He smokes, he drinks (I suspect he is an alcoholic), he has a bad temper. I know he would benefit from surrounding himself with a church family. However, he resorts back to this teaching, stating that churches are corrupt if they take offerings and pay the pastors a salary, etc. I have talked with him about 1 Corinthians 9: 9-14 and Hebrews 10:24-27. Are there any other verses that speak to this? It would need to be new testament as his discounts old testament as invalid.

Thank you in advance!

In the 1st generations what they had were "house churches" where believers with "congregate" ( hence congregation).
Under those times of persecution and hardship, it made even more sense to get together to strength ones faith.
Typically it happened at the homes of the more affluent.
As the centuries pasted and a more "organized" central church came to be and more affluent people joined and, one assumes, donated property, then actual established "temples" and such came to be, as did organized meetings.
And then came the church hierarchy and clergy class and all the good AND bad that went with it.

Do we need to go to church to worship God?
No, people worshiped God before there even was a temple and, one can argue, most of the issues came WITH a centralized worshiping area.

What must be asked is WHY are you going or not going?

What is the New Testament model but the growing numbers of believers constantly gathering, interacting, loving each other and worshiping together? How can iron sharpen iron if each shape of metal stays by itself? Much spiritual growth, faith and power in numbers to accomplish God's goals for His church come together when Christians come together in unity and purpose led by God. God poured out His spirit and understandings in different ways to different people, all of Whose truths become apparent to each other ONLY when we are in constant fellowship.

We change and grow from constant interaction with other Christians in countless ways of which we otherwise cannot. We can't be nearly as encouraged when in isolation. And God WANTS us to struggle with issues and differences within the Body of Christ, as it's an important way in which He changes us. "Lone Ranger" Christianity accomplishes little, learns little, and has far less ability to change the unbelieving world around it. And how can other believers know how to pray for us if we're not even coming into contact with them? We simply don't grow in isolation and we're far more vulnerable to the dangers of the world and the constant evil influences which we encounter. A Christian not in constant fellowship with a body of believers will never realize what God intended for them.

"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25)

And, for a very long while, I did not go to church, didn't feel like I fit in, found many Christians annoying, hypocrites, etc. Eventually, upon marrying, we began to search for a church with the right fit, that I felt comfortable with theologically, various aspects of the church and its leadership/pastor. I went to several churches before finding one that I'm truly excited about, and have been a member there for about 3 years. I can't tell you what incredible things this church is learning, growing with each other, constantly doing outreach into our community, impacting missions/supporting specific missionaries around the world. We are multi-ethnic/multi-cultural, and it is exciting to see so many people from so many different cultural backgrounds coming together in power, through Jesus! None of this would be possible if we were merely sitting at home. The influence we have on others and the impact they have on us is hugely important. The activities my kids are in there have grown them immensely, not only in teaching and spiritual growth, but also in their experiences, and by seeing that their peers and their peers parents also have our same Christian values and mindset. This absolutely cannot happen sitting at home. No online community, as important as they sometimes are, can function at such a high level or in so many area!

"Going to church" isn't the only way believers can have fellowship with other believers. Therefore, "going to church" isn't necessary for fellowship. The idea is to have fellowship with other believers. Going to church, bible studies, inviting others to have "church" at home, even fellowship on a discussion board.

PaulSacramento wrote: What must be asked is WHY are you going or not going?

Yes, I do think this is the key. As I have been pondering this longer, I think he is almost using that teaching from his youth as an excuse. He will occasionally pray before meals. He loves to talk about evolution/Creation (he believes in a literal bible translation of THIS), but it seems like his belief is all in his head and not in his heart.

I am going to continue to pray for him and engage him in conversation about having a personal relationship with Jesus as often as I can.

Philip wrote:What is the New Testament model but the growing numbers of believers constantly gathering, interacting, loving each other and worshiping together? How can iron sharpen iron if each shape of metal stays by itself? Much spiritual growth, faith and power in numbers to accomplish God's goals for His church come together when Christians come together in unity and purpose led by God. God poured out His spirit and understandings in different ways to different people, all of Whose truths become apparent to each other ONLY when we are in constant fellowship.

We change and grow from constant interaction with other Christians in countless ways of which we otherwise cannot. We can't be nearly as encouraged when in isolation. And God WANTS us to struggle with issues and differences within the Body of Christ, as it's an important way in which He changes us. "Lone Ranger" Christianity accomplishes little, learns little, and has far less ability to change the unbelieving world around it. And how can other believers know how to pray for us if we're not even coming into contact with them? We simply don't grown in isolation and we're far more vulnerable to the dangers of the world and the constant evil influences which we encounter. A Christian not in constant fellowship with a body of believers will never realize what God intended for them.

"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25)

Thank you so much for this! You have articulated what is in my heart so well. One thing I did e-mail to him about last night was 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 about the body of Christ. I gave him the analogy that if we cut off our hand, it is going to die. LIkewise, if we cut ourselves off from the body of Christ, we will spiritually die. He has not yet responded to this. But your logic is sound, and I will be using it in my discussions with him. Thanks again!

RickD wrote:"Going to church" isn't the only way believers can have fellowship with other believers. Therefore, "going to church" isn't necessary for fellowship. The idea is to have fellowship with other believers. Going to church, bible studies, inviting others to have "church" at home, even fellowship on a discussion board.

I agree with you here as well, The problem is, he is doing none of the above. That is why I feel that he is hiding behind this as an excuse. He is not displaying any fruits of the spirit. In fact, what he often displays is the opposite of what a spirit filled Christian would display. I just want the best for him, and I feel that if he let go of this adamant excuse, and went to a church, he might actually find some much needed love, friendship and support.

tawny wrote:

RickD wrote:"Going to church" isn't the only way believers can have fellowship with other believers. Therefore, "going to church" isn't necessary for fellowship. The idea is to have fellowship with other believers. Going to church, bible studies, inviting others to have "church" at home, even fellowship on a discussion board.

I agree with you here as well, The problem is, he is doing none of the above. That is why I feel that he is hiding behind this as an excuse. He is not displaying any fruits of the spirit. In fact, what he often displays is the opposite of what a spirit filled Christian would display. I just want the best for him, and I feel that if he let go of this adamant excuse, and went to a church, he might actually find some much needed love, friendship and support.

Has your son in law told you that he's trusted Christ for his salvation? He can go to church every day, and have people around him that support him, but if he doesn't trust Christ...

RickD wrote: Has your son in law told you that he's trusted Christ for his salvation? He can go to church every day, and have people around him that support him, but if he doesn't trust Christ...

He has told me that he trusted Christ for his salvation when he was 12. And I agree that going to church does not save someone. I think he did earnestly accept Christ as his savior when he was young. But he is like the seed that fell in rocky soil. He sprang up but there was not enough soil so it withered. I don't know if this means he is not saved or what. I just know he needs help. I know Jesus is the one whose help he needs. I am feeling desperate about this because I have a 3 month old grandson, whom I want the very very best for. I am desperate for Corry to become the man God created to be, for my grandson, my daughter and for himself.

tawny wrote:

RickD wrote: Has your son in law told you that he's trusted Christ for his salvation? He can go to church every day, and have people around him that support him, but if he doesn't trust Christ...

He has told me that he trusted Christ for his salvation when he was 12. And I agree that going to church does not save someone. I think he did earnestly accept Christ as his savior when he was young. But he is like the seed that fell in rocky soil. He sprang up but there was not enough soil so it withered. I don't know if this means he is not saved or what. I just know he needs help. I know Jesus is the one whose help he needs. I am feeling desperate about this because I have a 3 month old grandson, whom I want the very very best for. I am desperate for Corry to become the man God created to be, for my grandson, my daughter and for himself.

Why do you have concerns? is it just because of his issues with church?
Many people, myself included, have many issues with organized religion.

tawny wrote: Corry does not live like I would think a Christian should. He smokes, he drinks (I suspect he is an alcoholic), he has a bad temper. I know he would benefit from surrounding himself with a church family. However, he resorts back to this teaching, stating that churches are corrupt if they take offerings and pay the pastors a salary, etc.

This is why I don't think he is a Christian, or at least not a growing Christian. No evidence of the fruits of the spirit. If he had a problem with organized religion, but he was regularly in the Word, and he worked on his short-comings, I would still disagree with him, but I would not be so concerned. But he claims Christianity, but there is no outward evidence of his relationship with Jesus. I want to encourage that. (outward evidence of his relationship with Jesus).

tawny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: What must be asked is WHY are you going or not going?

Yes, I do think this is the key. As I have been pondering this longer, I think he is almost using that teaching from his youth as an excuse. He will occasionally pray before meals. He loves to talk about evolution/Creation (he believes in a literal bible translation of THIS), but it seems like his belief is all in his head and not in his heart.

I am going to continue to pray for him and engage him in conversation about having a personal relationship with Jesus as often as I can.

I think this (bolded and underlined phrase) is key. There are many people who use their intellect to convince them about God's existence, the importance of studying the Bible, etc. But, that's not what is going to sustain us in our relationship with God. God appeals to our intellect and then we must INVITE Him into our hearts. No amount of preaching or studying the bible can do that. There is a famous painting (don't remember the artist, but it's old) where Jesus is standing outside of a door knocking. What's telling is that this door has no outside door knob. It must be opened from the inside. Only then can He enter in. The important thing here, I think, is that once we have convinced our intellect of God's existence, how can we then INVITE Him into our hearts? There is only one way: WE MUST ASK HIM: WE MUST PRAY. Prayer is the connection between our hearts and God's. And, one other thing: people sometimes confuse prayer with feeling emotionally connected to God--in other words, they rely on their emotions to determine when or if God is present to them. I have found in my life that it is when I least feel like praying, when I am down, upset, angry, or disappointed when God is closest to me. It is during those times when He reaches into our hearts and beckons us to Him. When I am in that kind of situation, I find reading the Passion of Jesus most helpful...especially while He was in the Garden of Gethsemane. It is there that He experienced the humanity of loss, abandonment, rejection, betrayal, and sadness. His physical agony was terrible to be sure, but I believe that His sufferings in the Garden were far worse because as human beings, those are the situations which profoundly affect our own lives.

Sorry...didn't mean to get on my soap box, but I just wanted to share a little of my own spiritual experiences.

Tawny: Also, take heart. You know, St. Augustine lived a terrible, sinful, and worldly existence. He caroused, drank, and even had a child out of wedlock. He was a pagan. His mother, St. Monica, never gave up on him. She prayed for him for 30 years. He became one of the greatest defenders of Christianity ever. His writings are profoundly spiritual and a peek into the merciful heart of Jesus. There are hundreds of examples such as Augustine--even today. Do not lose heart! Remember: "Be still and know that I AM God."

Thanks again, everyone for your advice. Last night my son-in-law was over and we had a really good talk. He seems to be hung up on the idea of churches judging and guilting people into doing what the church wants them to. Interestingly, when I explained that when I feel guilty at church, it is not the pastor trying to make me feel guilty, rather it is the holy spirit that convicts, he admitted that he doesn't really understand the holy spirit and prefers not to think about it. He did admit that there can be good things that come from churches. So, it seems that God is all ready answering my prayers.

Tawny, I am a recently converted from atheist. My major problem with God was organized religion, especially when I saw hypocrisy and unbiblical doctrine promoted in His name. One of the revelations I had when I was saved was that it is PEOPLE who are not following the Word who cause the problems not God himself.

I am yet to find a church I want to commit to but I have found a wonderful group of people who meet regularly to support one another, pray and discuss their bible studies. This group meets in a gay bar and is an outreach to gay men, I am a woman and not gay but I feel this is the group of people that God has lead me to reach out to. This has become my "church".

I have a personal belief that Jesus told us that his body does not reside in a building but in the fellowship of those who meet in His name, just as early Christians did. Your son-in-law could look to find a house church or small congregation, he could skip "church" all together and join a bible study group. While I love having fellowship with other believers, I know I can also rely on God to be there for me and on His word to guide me if I take time to read and to pray on my own. Maybe your son-in-law needs the flexibility to seek the place that God guides him to; even if it is not conventionally "church" as you see it.

Love
Carolyn