Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:23 pm**

In compliance with RickD's request, I'm splitting this aspect of the discussion with A2E into a new thread. From one of A2E's final posts, regarding Jeremiah 23:24:

At the response in question (the weblink is provided above), I directed Danieltwotwenty's attention to the context of Jeremiah 23:24 (the surrounding verses) where figurative speech was consistently used. For instance, the false religious leaders and false prophets from among the ancient Israelites were referred to as shepherds, and the common people were referred to as sheep. If the "shepherds" and "sheep" at Jeremiah chapter 23 were not literal but were in reality human beings, then the expression "God fills the heavens and earth," is likewise not literal. It is with reference to Jehovah's ability to know what is taking place in heaven and on earth.

I'm not sure why witnesses do not believe that God is omnipresent, so I'm asking some hopefully more knowledgeable friends. At any rate, context is certainly important in understanding a particular verse. Ironically, I read this chapter 2 or 3 days ago in my normal reading. In chapter 23 (keep in mind that chapter-verse divisions are not part of the original text), Jeremiah has been warning against and proclaiming God's coming punishment on false prophets. The complete thought of which verse 24 is a part is verses 9-24:

23:9 Here is what the Lord says concerning the false prophets:
My heart and my mind are deeply disturbed.
I tremble all over.
I am like a drunk person,
like a person who has had too much wine,
because of the way the Lord
and his holy word are being mistreated.

23:10 For the land is full of people unfaithful to him.
They live wicked lives and they misuse their power.
So the land is dried up because it is under his curse.
The pastures in the wilderness are withered.

23:11 Moreover, the Lord says,
“Both the prophets and priests are godless.
I have even found them doing evil in my temple!

23:12 So the paths they follow will be dark and slippery.
They will stumble and fall headlong.
For I will bring disaster on them.
A day of reckoning is coming for them.”
The Lord affirms it!

23:13 The Lord says, “I saw the prophets of Samaria
doing something that was disgusting.
They prophesied in the name of the god Baal
and led my people Israel astray.

23:14 But I see the prophets of Jerusalem
doing something just as shocking.
They are unfaithful to me
and continually prophesy lies.
So they give encouragement to people who are doing evil,
with the result that they do not stop their evildoing.
I consider all of them as bad as the people of Sodom,
and the citizens of Jerusalem as bad as the people of Gomorrah.

23:15 So then I, the Lord who rules over all,
have something to say concerning the prophets of Jerusalem:
‘I will make these prophets eat the bitter food of suffering
and drink the poison water of judgment.
For the prophets of Jerusalem are the reason
that ungodliness has spread throughout the land.’”

23:16 The Lord who rules over all says to the people of Jerusalem:
“Do not listen to what
those prophets are saying to you.
They are filling you with false hopes.
They are reporting visions of their own imaginations,
not something the Lord has given them to say.

23:17 They continually say to those who reject what the Lord has said,
‘Things will go well for you!’
They say to all those who follow the stubborn inclinations of their own hearts,
‘Nothing bad will happen to you!’

23:18 Yet which of them has ever stood in the Lord’s inner circle
so they could see and hear what he has to say?
Which of them have ever paid attention or listened to what he has said?

23:19 But just watch! The wrath of the Lord
will come like a storm!
Like a raging storm it will rage down
on the heads of those who are wicked.

23:20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has fully carried out his intended purposes.
In days to come
you people will come to understand this clearly.

23:21 I did not send those prophets.
Yet they were in a hurry to give their message.
I did not tell them anything.
Yet they prophesied anyway.

23:22 But if they had stood in my inner circle,
they would have proclaimed my message to my people.
They would have caused my people to turn from their wicked ways
and stop doing the evil things they are doing.

23:23 Do you people think that I am some local deity
and not the transcendent God?” the Lord asks.

23:24 “Do you really think anyone can hide himself
where I cannot see him?” the Lord asks.
“Do you not know that I am everywhere?”
the Lord asks. (NET)

There are a few similes and metaphors (e.g. "as bad as the people of Sodom" and "eat the bitter food of suffering") but these are used sparingly, and these 16 verses use mostly very literal language, contrary to A2E's claim ("shepherds" is in a different thought context, one in which Jeremiah is condemning Judah's government leaders). The key to understanding what is meant in verse 24 is the previous verse. Together they show exactly what the last sentence of verse 24 means:

23:23 Do you people think that I am some local deity
and not the transcendent God?” the Lord asks.

23:24 “Do you really think anyone can hide himself
where I cannot see him?” the Lord asks.
“Do you not know that I am everywhere?”
the Lord asks. (NET)

God states that He is not like the local city cult gods of the pagans, who could be "escaped" by moving to any city a few miles away that happened to have a different cult god. God is stating through Jeremiah that He is everywhere, and there is no escaping His coming punishment. So the context actually confirms and reinforces the understanding of Jeremiah 23:24 posted by Danieltwotwenty.

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:17 pm**

Thanks for doing that Pete, I am a pretty crappy when it comes to theology and even crappier when it comes to expressing myself in the written form.

One thing I find is funny about alter's thoughts was that if (Matthew 18:20 says "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” ) Jesus said he would be among everyone who gathers in his name, that would make make him omnipresent and if God is not omnipresent then Jesus would be more powerful than God.

I think Psalms puts the nail in the coffin.

Psalm 139:7-10
"Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me."

Dan

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:46 pm**

That was the psalm I quoted but got no response from A2E

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:21 am**

Silvertusk wrote:That was the psalm I quoted but got no response from A2E

She seems to have quite a habit of that, I really do not understand the mentality of people like that.

It's a shame but there is nothing we can do to help her except pray.

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:20 am**

Silvertusk wrote:That was the psalm I quoted but got no response from A2E

I did also on RO, but in the context of showing that the Scriptures call the Holy Spirit God and attribute to the Holy Spirit a unique aspect of the nature of God. Her response was the sound of one cricket chirping.

In looking at Psalm 139:1-12, it's a two-fer in regard to the nature of God. David is trying to wrap his mind around two aspects of God's nature - omniscience and omnipresence. And finding that his mental arms aren't long enough. Verses 1-6 start by personalizing God's knowledge. There is no corner or aspect of David that God does not know. But then David extends God's knowledge beyond just himself.

139:1 O Lord, you examine me and know.

139:2 You know when I sit down and when I get up;
even from far away you understand my motives.

139:3 You carefully observe me when I travel or when I lie down to rest;
you are aware of everything I do.

139:4 Certainly my tongue does not frame a word
without you, O Lord, being thoroughly aware of it.

139:5 You squeeze me in from behind and in front;
you place your hand on me.

139:6 Your knowledge is beyond my comprehension;
it is so far beyond me, I am unable to fathom it.

There is no limit to God's knowledge.

Then David adds God's presence - everywhere - as yet another aspect of God's nature that the human mind can express, sort of, but not really understand.

139:7 Where can I go to escape your spirit?
Where can I flee to escape your presence?

139:8 If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there.
If I were to sprawl out in Sheol, there you would be.

139:9 If I were to fly away on the wings of the dawn,
and settle down on the other side of the sea,

139:10 even there your hand would guide me,
your right hand would grab hold of me.

139:11 If I were to say, “Certainly the darkness will cover me,
and the light will turn to night all around me,”

139:12 even the darkness is not too dark for you to see,
and the night is as bright as day;
darkness and light are the same to you.

In David's poetry and superlatives, don't miss two underlying literal truths. 1.) There is no place in creation where God is not. 2.) There is no uncreated "place" where God is not. Personally, it seems absurd to say that God could create something as vast and complex (to human understanding) as the universe and that universe has areas or corners in which God is not present. Talk about a literal example of the old comment that, "Your god is too small!"

I guess these two aspects of God's nature were as much as David could try to contemplate that night three millennia ago. Try to wrap your brain around the meaning of the fact that time - in which we live and by which we are limited - was created by God. Put in practical terms from our temporal perspective, Adam and Abraham are as "presently" real to God as I am and as are my future grandchildren (if any).

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:26 am**

As RickD said on A2E's thread and WhoIsJohnGalt said on RO, the good thing about threads such as A2E started here and there is that we can learn from each other and meditate on God's word, nature and character.

Not sure how well it worked out for the body-building, boxing, and horse-ring forums on which A2E has posted. Hopefully some Christians on those forums had an opportunity to share their faith as a result of A2E's Internet wanderings.

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:32 am**

I haven't had a chance to look into this yet, so does anyone know why JWs argue against God's omnipresence?

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:04 am**

I don't know. I've FB Messaged a friend who might know, but have not heard back from him.

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:40 pm**

RickD wrote:I haven't had a chance to look into this yet, so does anyone know why JWs argue against God's omnipresence?

I imagine for the same reason they believe Michael and Jesus to be the same person...

Anyways, from what I understand they believe that since God is described as having a location (His throne in Heaven) that he is not omnipresent. They believe that since God dwells in the Heavens that he is not everywhere. An interesting theory, but I believe the Bible was referring to his love and presence residing in Heaven with those who were saved.

Posted: **Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:24 pm**

RickD wrote:I haven't had a chance to look into this yet, so does anyone know why JWs argue against God's omnipresence?

When I saw Alter2Ego bring that up I did some quick research on some of the main JW's forums. I came up with this:

I've been looking around some of the JW's websites and it seems to be the common viewpoint.

"The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1)"

"The Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent, or present everywhere at all times, like some impersonal force. Rather, as Jesus’ words found at Matthew 6:9 and 18:10 show, God is a person—a “Father”—and he resides in heaven, his “established place of dwelling.”—1 Kings 8:43.
Toward the end of his life, Jesus said: “I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.” (John 16:28) After his death in the flesh and resurrection as a spirit, Christ ascended “into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God.”—Hebrews 9:24."

These seem to be the general arguments from the JW's

Posted: **Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:13 am**

This is a topic that I really haven't given a lot of thought to, as such, since the late 60s in Confirmation class. God is omnipresent; He's everywhere; He's the Creator, so why not; "simple" enough. So I was looking through the pertinent section of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology to see what else there might be in Scripture besides the passages in Jer. 23 and Psalm 139. In so doing I noticed that the translation he used (RSV) had Jer. 23 somewhat different than the translation I used, the New English Translation. So, here's Jer. 23:23-24 in the ESV:

23 "Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.

In these verses the NET ventures farther into interpretation than I like in a Bible translation. Not as extremely as one experience I had with The Living Bible, where I found something really good in a verse in one of Paul's letters, but when I looked at the RSV, KJV and Amplified, the "something really good" was not in the text, at all. The NET reading in verse 23, "some local deity," places the text into the historical-cultural context of Jeremiah and Judah. I think that the NET interpretation is at least plausible, and probably captures rather well how the Jewish people of Jeremiah's say would have understood it. Similarly, the latter part of verse 23 in the NET, "the transcendent God," captures God's point: God transcends locality. But it is interpretation rather than translation. The NET reading in verse 24, "I am everywhere," is a little less into the realm of interpretation, but to my ears the closer to literal, "Do I not fill heaven and earth," feels stronger and more dramatic.

Stepping back from my niggling of my choice of translation - chosen because it is one of the translations I currently use and due to ease of online access, not any agenda on my part - the less interpretive ESV (or RSV, or KJV, or NASB, or ...) does not weaken the points I made above: 1.) Jer. 23: 24 is properly understood as teaching God's omnipresence (I noticed that Martin Luther's Small Catechism cites Jer. 23: 24 as proof of that teaching); 2.) the immediate context of verse 24, verse 23, supports the omnipresence understanding of the passage and contradicts the idea that God has a specific location (to the exclusion of other locations).

Integrity in using Scripture is important to me: I will not choose ideosyncratic quotes from translations for their support of some point I believe/advocate; contrary to A2E's claim, I will not knowingly use a Scripture out of context (i.e. no Kamikaze Bible Study Method: Matthew 27:5 with Luke 10:37 with John 13:27).

Posted: **Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:34 am**

SoA, thanks for doing the research. In my mind there are two levels to the question of why the WTB&TS (that's the source and authority for witnesses' doctrines and understanding of the Bible). The first level is what scriptures do they cite to support a teaching, and your research is very helpful in this. The second level is the question of whether there is some other core aspect of of WT doctrine that forces them into their current position on omnipresence. An example of what I mean can be found in WTB&TS history. A century ago, under Charles T. Russell, Bible Students (as they then called themselves) were taught that it was proper to worship Jesus. This is something found multiple times in the Gospels - people worshiping Jesus without Jesus reproving them (Both contrary to Judaism! Unless ...). Some time during Rutherford's or Knorr's presidency over the WTB&TS, some one realized that teaching that worshiping Jesus is proper is a functional contradiction of the WT teaching that Jesus (the Son, the Word) is a creature (something Russell taught from the beginning of the WTB&TS), as only God is to be worshiped. And so the WT changed a particular teaching to fit their core Arianism. And it is this second level - whether there is some reason underlying their ideosyncratic teaching that God is not omnipresent - that has piqued my curiosity. It may be as simple as the WT latching onto an inappropriately literal and narrow interpretation of several scriptures to show how they are superior to other groups calling themselves Christian in their understanding of Scripture.

Posted: **Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:12 am**

Ucky duck ... re a couple of JWs' "proof-texts" SoA cited ... at least a couple are kind of ironic. Before going there, however, it should be pointed out that even when God states heaven to be His dwelling place, this does not preclude God being also present throughout creation. So the WTB&TS's either-or "logic" fails because and is not excluded. Onward ...

1 Kings 8:49 is part of Solomon's prayer at the dedication of the temple; Solomon is speaking, which is a cylindrical container of annelids I won't broach. Earlier in Solomon's prayer is,

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! - 1 Kings 8:27 ESV

Same context, same prayer by Solomon ... OOPSIE!

I really do not "get" why Isaiah 66:1 would be cited. Look at the whole verse ...

Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? - Is. 66:1 ESV

God basically reiterated what Solomon prayed in 1 Kings 8:27. And there's a trap, should some one look at the verse while talking to a witness. Should the witness try to bail out by pointing out the figurative language of, "the earth is my footstool," consistency would demand recognizing that, "Heaven is my throne" is also figurative. OOPSIE!

So why would God repeatedly state that He dwells in heaven when many scriptures indicate God's presence throughout Creation as well? Danieltwotwenty is right, Psalm 139 is pretty exhaustive and definitive on that point! I won't claim to have read God's mind, nor that God took me into confidence on this (beyond what He revealed in Scripture). My thought (not claiming superior insight, just distinguishing my ideas from clear statements in Scripture) is that God is thus expressing His superiority, majesty, power, transcendence, and not being limited. If God is beyond limit in all those respects, there is not limit on His Lordship over Creation and His faithfulness to His people.

One Scripture passage that Grudem cited in his Systematic Theology is Amos 9:1-4:

1 I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and he said: "Strike the capitals until the thresholds shake, and shatter them on the heads of all the people; and those who are left of them I will kill with the sword; not one of them shall flee away; not one of them shall escape. 2 "If they dig into Sheol, from there shall my hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down. 3 If they hide themselves on the top of Carmel, from there I will search them out and take them; and if they hide from my sight at the bottom of the sea, there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them. 4 And if they go into captivity before their enemies, there I will command the sword, and it shall kill them; and I will fix my eyes upon them for evil and not for good." - Amos 9:1-4 ESV

The specific message of this passage - God's punishment cannot be escaped because God is everywhere - is less pleasant than David's more general meditation on God's omnipresence in Psalm 139, but this is yet another passage that emphasizes that God truly is omnipresent.

Posted: **Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:14 pm**

PeteSinCA wrote:Ucky duck ... re a couple of JWs' "proof-texts" SoA cited ... at least a couple are kind of ironic. Before going there, however, it should be pointed out that even when God states heaven to be His dwelling place, this does not preclude God being also present throughout creation. So the WTB&TS's either-or "logic" fails because and is not excluded. Onward ...

1 Kings 8:49 is part of Solomon's prayer at the dedication of the temple; Solomon is speaking, which is a cylindrical container of annelids I won't broach. Earlier in Solomon's prayer is,

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! - 1 Kings 8:27 ESV
Same context, same prayer by Solomon ... OOPSIE!

I really do not "get" why Isaiah 66:1 would be cited. Look at the whole verse ...

Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? - Is. 66:1 ESV
God basically reiterated what Solomon prayed in 1 Kings 8:27. And there's a trap, should some one look at the verse while talking to a witness. Should the witness try to bail out by pointing out the figurative language of, "the earth is my footstool," consistency would demand recognizing that, "Heaven is my throne" is also figurative. OOPSIE!

So why would God repeatedly state that He dwells in heaven when many scriptures indicate God's presence throughout Creation as well? Danieltwotwenty is right, Psalm 139 is pretty exhaustive and definitive on that point! I won't claim to have read God's mind, nor that God took me into confidence on this (beyond what He revealed in Scripture). My thought (not claiming superior insight, just distinguishing my ideas from clear statements in Scripture) is that God is thus expressing His superiority, majesty, power, transcendence, and not being limited. If God is beyond limit in all those respects, there is not limit on His Lordship over Creation and His faithfulness to His people.

One Scripture passage that Grudem cited in his Systematic Theology is Amos 9:1-4:

1 I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and he said: "Strike the capitals until the thresholds shake, and shatter them on the heads of all the people; and those who are left of them I will kill with the sword; not one of them shall flee away; not one of them shall escape. 2 "If they dig into Sheol, from there shall my hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down. 3 If they hide themselves on the top of Carmel, from there I will search them out and take them; and if they hide from my sight at the bottom of the sea, there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them. 4 And if they go into captivity before their enemies, there I will command the sword, and it shall kill them; and I will fix my eyes upon them for evil and not for good." - Amos 9:1-4 ESV
The specific message of this passage - God's punishment cannot be escaped because God is everywhere - is less pleasant than David's more general meditation on God's omnipresence in Psalm 139, but this is yet another passage that emphasizes that God truly is omnipresent.

Excellent points, Pete. I always enjoy reading your posts--I learn something new every time!

Posted: **Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:41 am**

RickD wrote:I haven't had a chance to look into this yet, so does anyone know why JWs argue against God's omnipresence?

My friend got back to me on FB. He said that they take anthropomorphic metaphor (my choice of words) (such as in, "Our Father who art in heaven ...") literally - obviously while ignoring or discounting passages such as Ps. 139. And he said that this goes back to the days of C. T. Russell (the founder).

Evidence for God from Science

The Nature of God - Omnipresence

The Nature of God - Omnipresence

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Re: The Nature of God - Omnipresence