Evidence for God from Science

PeteSinCA wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:.....My point was to make the gift of tongues a gift more than any other is, IMO, quite wrong.
Also that speaking in tongues doesn't mean "divine language" but in the tongues of the nations.

As I said, the "greatest" gift is the one needed for the situation at hand. So I don't regard speaking in tongues as any greater than the other spiritual gifts (and, as I've mentioned previously, that includes the spiritual gifts Paul listed in Rom. 12, not just the more obviously supernatural gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12).

As for the kind of language a particular utterance in tongues might be, I'm satisfied to leave that to the choice of the Holy Spirit. Scripture says little to that effect, though not nothing. In Acts 2, the utterances in tongues by 12-120 people speaking more or less simultaneously were described by the hearers thus, "we each hear them in our own language to which we were born." That the utterances were in each of those languages is the more natural assumption/understanding.

However, the fact that as many as 120 people were speaking more or less simultaneously and the number of languages represented among the hearers raises a very reasonable possibility that the miracle was not that the 12-120 believers spoke the many languages of the hearers, but that God miraculously caused the hearers to "hear" what was spoken in their native languages. But even assuming what I call the more natural assumption/understanding, Acts 2 is a single example, not really a sufficient basis for certainty. I'll return to that thought in a minute.

At any rate, the other place Scripture speaks to the languages speaking in tongues might be is 1Cor. 13:1, "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal" (NASB). I've heard the "explanation" that "and of angels" was hyperbole, not a real possibility. The problem with that "explanation" is that there is nothing in the text to support it; it's what Walter Martin might have called "eisegesis", reading something into a text that isn't there.

Returning to building a doctrine on a few historical examples (and possibly something in the background of your comments, "It is also clear that the HS, WHEN He gives a special gift like speaking in tongues, can also give any other gift He so chooses" and "to make the gift of tongues a gift more than any other is, IMO, quite wrong"), the doctrine that speaking in tongues is the evidence that one has been baptized in the Holy Spirit is common among Pentecostals and charismatic’s.

The basis for this is the supposed fact that every time in the book of Acts someone is filled with the Holy Spirit for the first time, they spoke in tongues. I've never believed this doctrine, not from my first exposure to it in reading David Wilkerson's book, The Cross and the Switchblade, in 1971 or 1972. I saw three problems in it.

First, the claimed fact about events in the book of Acts in not correct. What Paul did when first filled with the Spirit is not described; in another instance (Acts 19), the event is described thus, "they began speaking with tongues and prophesying", which may or may not support the claim (Did those who prophesied first speak in tongues? Or did they simply prophesy? It's nitpicking, but if you're building a doctrine on such texts they should support what is claimed).

Second, building a doctrine on a half dozen or so historical events, IMO, is not sound, unless, Third, Scripture plainly states those events to be the norm ... which it does not.

It may come as a surprise to you, but I've never had occasion to discuss this doctrine with anyone in nearly 25 years in charismatic churches. I've never heard it taught from the pulpit or in classes at any charismatic church I've attended.

This is getting pretty far afield from the Doctrine of the Trinity, and there is a thread elsewhere that focuses on experiences with the Holy Spirit. If this conversation continues, maybe it should do so in that thread.

12:6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 12:7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 12:8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness.

12:8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 12:10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

4:11 It was he who gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

PeteSinCA wrote:Hmmmm ... this being at once a continuation of a thread and a new thread, maybe I'll lay some cards on the table to provide some broad context.

The New Testament has a couple of lists of spiritual gifts, in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 (respectively):

12:6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 12:7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 12:8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness.

12:8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 12:10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

In addition there is a list in Ephesians 4 of gifts to the church given by Jesus:

4:11 It was he who gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Some basic observations:

* Without ignoring or excluding natural inclinations and talents or training, these gifts are from the Holy Spirit and (in Ephesians 4) from Jesus. Their essential character, even when not obviously so (e.g. giving or serving), is supernatural. As are their underlying power. The giving and the apportioning of gifts are by the will of the Holy Spirit.

* "Importance" is explained in 1 Corinthians 12 by the metaphor of a body (the Body of Christ): one organ or member is not the whole body; every organ and member is needed; no organ or member can properly "say" to another that it is not needed. Building on this analogy, if the body needs to move from one place to another, legs and feet are needed. If the body needs to be nourished, arms, hands and the digestive tract are needed. In other words, importance is according to the need at hand.

* 1Corinthians 13:8-12 states that the gifts of the Spirit would cease. Verses 10-12 show that that time is with Jesus return, i.e. when the gifts of the Spirit are no longer needed.

* The meaning of some of the gifts are reasonably obvious from what they are called, e.g. "healing" and "miracles". Some are defined in Scripture to some degree, e.g. prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14.

* Spiritual gifts are not badges denoting spirituality. They are tools. Taking pride in speaking in tongues or healing is as silly as boasting about having a really cool hammer or screwdriver.

* The motivation for the use of spiritual gifts should be love (1 Corinthians 13), not self-promotion.

* In Christian assemblies, the gifts should be used in an orderly (i.e. not a distracting) manner, 1 Corinthians 14:40. Per that same verse, the gifts should, as needed, be used. I understand 1Thessalonians 5:19-20 to make that latter point as well.

1- Individuals in the body of Christ all have differing gifts (endowments from the Holy Spirit) and this makes the Church to function as a team in implementing these. This aspect is largely ignored in the modern church world.

3 - There is abuse of the gifts of endowment and for such and sadly the common response is to shun this empowerment altogether

5 - 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 is placed between two Gifts of the Spirit chapters - why? It points to how theses gifts are to be governed. If not, a lot of noise and nothing is caused....

4 - The Gifts, callings, and promises of God are without repentance even to the degree that you could say that even God swears to his own hurt in regards to peoples abuse of the gifts of the Spirit

PeteSinCA wrote:

5 - 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 is placed between two Gifts of the Spirit chapters - why? It points to how theses gifts are to be governed. If not, a lot of noise and nothing is caused....

To a degree possibly greater than any of his letters, in 1 Corinthians Paul is writing to fix problems. A key cause of many of the problems was disunity, and Paul hit that theme in a general way early in his letter. Then he dealt with problems arising from that disunity. It was making their "love" feasts and communion (Chapter 11) - which should have been times when love and unity were most apparent - caricatured mockeries and times to vaunt one's pride. It was making a mess of how the gifts of the Spirit were being used (chapter 12) and some were, again, acting out of pride (chapter 14). In chapter 13 Paul laid out, clearly, what the motive must be for the use of the gifts - and even of unity - love. As the old Larry Norman song paraphrases verse 2 and 3, "Without love you ain't nothin'! (You ain't nothin' without love!)".

Maybe it's a distinction just in my mind, but to me "governed" suggests something externally imposed, while "motive" works from each person's heart outward.

PeteSinCA wrote:

4 - The Gifts, callings, and promises of God are without repentance even to the degree that you could say that even God swears to his own hurt in regards to peoples abuse of the gifts of the Spirit

This is something that should scare the something or other out of Christians, especially Pentecostals and charismatics (I resemble that remark!)! If need be, God will use whatever He can get. It might be Balaam's donkey. It might be the pagan Babylonians (used by God to execute judgment on Judah, Ammon, Moab, Edom, and Egypt, among other lesser kingdoms). When God was done, Balaam's donkey was still a donkey, and God next brought judgment on the Babylonians. So, not only is being used in gifts such as prophecy, healing, teaching, serving, hospitality, etc. not a badge of spirituality, it's not even evidence that your walk with God is OK!

1over137 wrote:When I became Christian I started to write prose and poems too. Never before I thought I would be doing this. I wish to write. Write what is on my heart, what I see in front of my eyes. By writing I wish to fight against evil things. I wish to spread hope and love. I wish to reach people. Am very thankful for this talent/gift.

Father, thank you so much