Evidence for God from Science

This is the question that caused me to leave church.

I've never understood why Jesus had to die.

I've been told it was to pay the price for our sin, but I've never understood to whom the price had to be paid.

I've been told it was because God loves us, but I don't see how killing yourself because you've decided you won't forgive people until you do shows love.

If God is God, then he could forgive without doing anything. That would fit better with the description of love in Corinthians. If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, why are we all damned by what Adam and Eve did?

If God is God, he wouldn't need to pay a price to anyone before he could do something, so why did he decide he'd have to die?

If God died, why was there not carnage on earth as presumably the devil would take over in the absence of God?

God is not only Love. He is also Justice.

1over137 wrote:God is not only Love. He is also Justice.

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Thanks for replying.

I'm not sure what your reply means though.

Are you saying that God judged that the only way he was going to forgive people for the things they had done wrong was to kill himself? It's the mechanism of how that works that I don't get:

Was God unwilling to forgive, or unable?
What is it about him dying that made him willing/able to forgive afterwards?
Who made the rule that 'God cannot forgive unless an animal is sacrificed, or he dies'? and why does the death of something unreleated make a differece to God's view of the sin?
And why does he hold the sin of Adam and Eve against us anyway?

Short post for now:

Have you ever read http://timothykeller.com/books/the_reason_for_god/ ?
There is chapter 12: The true story of the cross

For longer post, I need to collect what I learned from friends who are pastors, or teachers...

DowTingTom wrote:This is the question that caused me to leave church.

I've never understood why Jesus had to die.

I've been told it was to pay the price for our sin, but I've never understood to whom the price had to be paid.

I've been told it was because God loves us, but I don't see how killing yourself because you've decided you won't forgive people until you do shows love.

If God is God, then he could forgive without doing anything. That would fit better with the description of love in Corinthians. If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, why are we all damned by what Adam and Eve did?

If God is God, he wouldn't need to pay a price to anyone before he could do something, so why did he decide he'd have to die?

If God died, why was there not carnage on earth as presumably the devil would take over in the absence of God?

Let’s deal with your first question: I've never understood why Jesus had to die and take it from there first.

What your questions suggest is that you do not understand the Western Churches substitutionary atonement model. This is the dominate model used in the Western Churches used to explain Christ death and resurrection. It is true. It is this view that seems to be causing you confusion. This model is summed up very well in the following article far better than I can go into in a short amount of space.

http://delveintojesus.com/articles/5/Wh ... o-Die.aspx

Then there is the Eastern Churches concept that expresses what the article mentions as well as points out something often missed in the Western Church regarding why Jesus died often alluded too as the The Christus Victor (CV) model. This model expresses aspects of substitutionary atonement (SA) but with greater emphasis on Christ’s atoning death as God’s victory over sin and death. The Christus Victor model is true.

The Western Church (SA) model resides heavily upon the legal aspects of justice as a lawyer does, whereas, the Eastern Church seeks to look at the whole picture. Both views are correct and provide balance to each other. If not, then one can stay into error concerning the atonement work of Christ such as Universalism (for CV) on one extreme and the other extreme (SA) – a mistaken picture of wrathful Father having his anger appeased by the death of his Son separating the work of the Father from the Son, as if they were in complete competition with each other over competing concerns of justice verses love.

So let us take a moment and look at the crux of the matter that the Eastern Church model stresses and the Western Church knows a little about. What is that? It is this…

It is we who put Jesus to death, we mocked, beat, scorned, we put him on trial, we sold him for thirty pieces of silver, we bore false witness against him. It is we who walked away from him when he challenges us to follow him alone and not to follow him for what we can get out of him. We shout for the bad to released and admired and the good be put to death. We brought him to authorities to justify and approve these doings and carry them out. We made him carry a heavy cross. We drove the nails into his hands and feet. We spat upon him. We divided his garments looking for goodies and loot.

How so you ask?

Jesus sets forth an answer to this in Matthew 25 by revealing a strong principle – when you done it to the least these, you done it to me…

So both figuratively and literally what relationships have we wrongly put to death, who have we mocked, scorned, betrayed?

How have we put folks on trial as well as God – demand him to perform or else?

Who have we sold for thirty pieces of silver, a night out, drugs, booze, pride, success at all cost, step on others to climb to the top? Is it our families, friends, loved ones sold and all for what –how has the family suffered from absent parents who sold their relationships for what? Temporal worldly things – prestige, power trips? What have we sold– at what cost?

Whom have we betrayed and who has betrayed us so we can continue spreading betrayal?

How have we bore false witness and lied to get out of a jam? Who have we walked away from because we can no longer get from them what we desire – in other words use people for one’s own gain.

How have we shouted for the bad to be released? Abortion? Redistribution’s theft i.e. fair share? What movies and TV shows do we enjoy to watch that glorify badness as a virtue (lust, greed, vice, etc – what does it teach us, how is it robbing our progeny? So how have we shouted for the badness to be released and demand good to pay?

What heavy crosses do we place others to bear, guilt trips, manipulation, demands, dominance games? Have you ever been bitter, envious, sought revenge, desired to take something away from someone else while justifying your acts in the process?

How have we drove the nails that crucify folks we simply don’t like cause they ain’t like us? Who have we spat upon and shown contempt and justify ourselves for doing so? What have we sought to divide loyalties, seek to gain advantage over – garments taken - looking for goodies and loot? How do we look to the experts to exonerate and approve legally such doings as these?

Jesus said in Matthew 25– when you done it to the least these, you done it to me…

You see, both SA and CV models exposes why Jesus had to die in the manner he did – to expose what sin in the human heart really is. Jesus became the true sin offering for this purpose. Now that takes a great love to do – to allow yourself to be mocked, beaten, scorned, put wrongly on trial, sold for out for thirty pieces of silver, betrayed, bore false witness against, scourged, a crown of thrones crammed on one’s head, lied about, nailed to a cross, clothes divided…

To show you and I what we are really like towards God, ourselves, and each other, as well as expose how we justify or actions to be this way. To show that he is willing to die so as to avert God’s just wrath takes a greater love, way more than I can fully comprehend.

I don’t think you or I would die such a terrible death as Jesus went through to reveal what sin really is and what it makes us - would we? Please read Matthew chapters 26 and 27 and Luke chapters 22 thru 23 and you’ll get a better picture of how he died and why.

Sin had to be defeated within our lives and Jesus came for that purpose all clearly expressed in Luke 4:18-20 and Isaiah 61:1-11

Good news is this – Jesus lives, he conquered sin and death. He breaks the repeating cycles we feel trapped in. Jesus rose from the dead so we can now rise too. This rising begins by placing simple faith in his deed upon that cross and resurrection, his victory over sin; so that we can now, in this life arise out of the behaviors that trap us to death.

How could you or I become aware of what real sin is without a powerful objective demonstration that transcends time and era? A simple nod and wink could not do this - would it?

Jesus conquered sin and death. He is alive, not dead. Risen and not in a tomb. He seals and delivers on his promises to change us out of darkness into His marvelous light of life and by this living process we daily learn about him increasing in personal knowledge about him from himself.

As a former atheist, I used use a form of the same questions you posed here - I've never understood why Jesus had to die – to entrap Christians. I would make a case that God was sure a pretty mean umbrae to kill a son to just appease his wrath. Many stumbled at this. Then, later it was revealed to me that the nature of God’s wrath brings to the surface the real person’s sin nature in full fruition exposing what really is on the inside of a person.

What we miss is how sinless Jesus bore God’s wrath in our place so that it exposes who and what we are really like deep inside. And yes, Jesus also took the proverbial bullet for us too. He did appease the anger of God on our behalf and he took our blows too as our substituiontary atonement. Combine that with what I just expounded on and you’ll gain insight into why Jesus died and rose from the dead. And what he desires for you now: John 3:16, 36
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Thank you BW for your post. I do not now feel need to look into my emails with friends to collect something to post. You said it very well in my opinion.

1over137 wrote:Thank you BW for your post. I do not now feel need to look into my emails with friends to collect something to post. You said it very well in my opinion.

Let me add a few more things to my prior comments in order clarify a few things I was unable to explain about both the Substitutionary Atonement (SA) Christus Victor (CV) models.

One must note that both Substitutionary Atonement (SA) model and the Christus Victor (CV) model need each other to avoid straying into errors. Without this check and balance, for example, the CV model taken to the extreme spins off into error of the what is known as the ransom theory summed up as God paying off the devil for the souls of men and can spin off into the Universalistic model of atonement. Or it can spin off into viewing humanity as a victim and not a perpetrator of sin. These are all error due to the fact the bible supports none of these views.

Likewise, at the exclusion of CV in the SA model, one can stray off into the unhealthy realm of viewing God as a legalistic wrathful Father having his anger appeased by the death of his Son which separates the work of the Father from the Son. It opens an unhealthy door that the Godhead was in competition with each other. It can spin off into wrongful view of God that promotes a neurotic works mentality needed to keep oneself saved too.

The SA model can spin off into error giving by painting the picture that God could have just forgiven without the act of the cross involved. In other words, it provides fuel whereby folks can justify themselves rejecting the salvific work of the cross. Both SA and CV need each other to balance and remain on target to uncover the truth. Both are intellectual tools to gain understanding of truth into the why’s of God on the matter of atoning work of Christ.

Christ was our Substitutionary Atonement for sin and victor over sin, death, and the devil so that we too can, in this life, learn to share in this same victory. So when I speak of the CV model, I refer to the fact that Christ is victor over sin, death, and the devil. We share in this victory and are granted the authority to combat these in our lives by the means of God’s grace. When I speak of Substitutionary Atonement I mean that Jesus was our atonement for sin – he paid the death penalty for sin God spoke about to Adam in the Garden of Eden. The bible overwhelming supports both these views.

Taken together, you realize there is more to the wisdom and love of God displayed upon the cross than most Christians realize. Just think of the depth of love God took to expose what sin is in the human heart. Both models in their simple definitions explain and explore this deepness of God. Separate them, one can spin off into crazy misguided notions.

When I was an atheist, the SA model was the only tool used to witness to folks like me. In that model, it was easy to counter due to the legalese that the SA model is based upon. It gave license for me to contend that the temporal act of stealing a candy bar or lying to avoid hurting another’s feelings warranted sending a person to an eternal hell was, well, not just. That Jesus paid the price, dying a torturous death for my stealing a candy bar, or the bosses paper clips from work, seems rather extreme. Simple absolution spoken would suffice better. I stumbled many Christians attempt to evangelize me.

The SA model alone is difficult to convey to a lost soul. It can unintentionally give intellectual wiggle room to justify not accepting what Christ accomplished for many various factors and reasons. However, to read the events that happened just prior to the cross reveals how I treat God with contempt and placed Jesus on the cross all displayed by how I treat others as Jesus was treated within the events 48 hours before the cross and during. In that, I saw what sin really is. It is more than stealing paper clips from the bosses office, stealing a candy bar, or lying when your wife ask, if her dress makes her look fat. Sin is deeper than these temporal acts. Sin itself is not temporal, it spreads like a cancer. It corrupts. It brings death. It is serious. So serious that the Lord himself came to expose and conquer it the only way it could be – by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

I was awoken to what sin really is within me in a unique manner. By the Lord’s hand, not the SA model alone nor the CV model alone but by God’s wrath which is upon humanity – exposing us, in a living way, who and what we are truly are like without all our fig leaves we weave together to excuse ourselves from looking in the mirror. It lead me to my need for a savior with the absolute power to save me from myself, a savoir who can instruct me how to walk in victory over plaguing sins, death, and the devil. In this is true heartfelt Christianity. I learned to love God because he first loved me enough to give me the divine slap I needed.

That is the power of the Cross.
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Thanks BW again. Yes indeed when Jesus on cross some people realized how cruel they were to him, how cruel people were/are generally. It was a great exposure. Exposure of our fallen state. He was innnocent/sinless and yet we were so cruel. Heartless.
He wanted to reach us and we nailed him.

Thank you for taking the time to reply at such length.

However, for all the long words and involved explanations it boils down to:

We're all sinners
Some sort of 'price' had to be paid so God could forgive that sin
That 'price' was Jesus being killed

So we're no further on. I still don't know in what way the death of Jesus triggered God being able to forgive. I still don't know why the killing of things (be it animals or his son) makes God able to forgive.

I sort of get that in bringing up real children as a human parent there have to be consequences for bad behaviour, but really Jesus dying 2000 years ago isn't a real hardship for me. I know it turned out ok for him, and uniquely he knew it would turn out ok for him too - he knew he'd come back to life in three days (so I don't understand how it can be claimed he was fully human either)

And real parents do forgive their children without any sort of atonement. It's part of loving them. It's fortunately very rare that real parents that love their kids require a sacrifice. It's the death bit I have most problem with, perhaps. Why choose killing people and animals as the 'price'?

And, still, it's the issue of this 'price being paid' I forgive my kids when they say sorry. You seem to be suggesting God killed Jesus so we'd all feel bad about it - guilty, I suppose. That doesn't feel like a very mature or optimal parenting choice. God could have had it that if we're sorry for something we say sorry and he forgives us. But instead he has 'I had to have Jesus killed because of you - FEEL BAD ABOUT IT - buy you're forgiven'

The idea that we'd all be evil if it was easy to forgive us and that's why Jesus had to die doesn't work because now Jesus has died, it is apparently very easy to get forgiveness - you just say sorry, God says 'well, I did kill Jesus because you're so bad, so you're forgiven' and we move on. I'm still at a loss to why the killing Jesus bit was needed. Sorry if I'm being dumb.

Remember that in all this, God knows your thoughts. I forgive my kids if they seem sorry, but they might be acting. God knows if you are genuinely remorseful. What sort of loving parent doesn't forgive their genuinely remorseful child and instead insists on making them feel worse about it first?

a great mind once said..."the cross shows how far men went to commit sin and how far God went to forgive them."

Let me break it into points,

1. Only perfection survives, eternally, since there is no fault in it.

2.God is eternal, so he is perfect.

3. God made man perfect in spirit so he can be with him.

4. Man was perfect but now is in sin.

5. Man is not perfect now and is therefore not eternal.

6. Since man is not eternal now he pays the price of sin, which is eternal spiritual death, following physical death since after physical death we will face God and account for our life and if we are not perfect nor atoned for, then we will face separation from God.

7. Because of that eternal spiritual death, man cannot free himself, by himself, by his own power, since he is not perfect to begin with.

8. To free man, a perfect person is needed, so he could atone for them, since no one is perfect except God, so enters Christ, who took a bodily form, came down to earth and paid the price of that sin by his atonement.

9. The need for christ to die is not to appease God, or make him feel satisfied. It is the need of man, since man cannot free himself. Just as a broken car can't fix itself. Only its creator can.

10. God can forgive every sin, he did not need to come down if only sin had to be forgiven. As you say, he is God, he could have just said, your sins are forgiven, from heaven and that would have done the deed. You are correct to assume this and I agree with you. Infact God is not bound to any rules. He is God.

11. But a blank slate is not the only thing what God had in mind, God wanted to show the world that he loves them so much that he is ready to give his son through the cross, if he had to. It is a divine expression of love. No man will die for a sinner, but christ did. For all who are lost, for everyone, because no one is perfect.

12. You will, as a parent forgive your children, but perhaps you will also tell them in your own way how to "not repeat" what wrongs they have done. And perhaps you will also show them the consequences of wrongs they have done and for which you have forgiven them. And if its really that much a matter to you, you will show them what their continued disobedience will result in, perhaps separation from you and horrible ends from their bad company, drugs, bad things. The same is with God. On the cross he showed the consequences of sin, which is death. The consequence is not the blood and gore and punishment, since God is not punishing anyone, not even Christ. It is the idea that sin ends in eternal death and separation from God. A goal for which man was made, was, to be in perfection of spirit and be with God eternally.

13. Jesus had a choice, he could have simply forgiven them, but that will not change their hearts. They would have been pardoned and then they would have repeated the same wrongs over and over. You would agree I suppose that a child who does not have the sense of being wrong, even when he commits wrong, needs to know this. God gave his son so that man can trust him and see how terrible a price he paid. Jesus came to change men, not just to forgive them. He loved them and he forgave them and he told them to do the same to others. He set an example.

14. And since he is God, he had to rise from the dead.

15. Perhaps you can argue that death is trivial in Jesus' case since he knew he would rise up. But do you honestly think that makes trivial all what he went through? If I kidnap you for three days and tell you that I will torture you but not kill you and then I torture you that your flesh reeks of cuts and bleeding, and after 3 days I let you go. Do you think you will feel nice that you knew you weren't going to be killed, and even if that be the case, will it make the pain you went through any less? No. The pain and suffering would still be there and no matter what you do you will not be able to forget that. The same is with Christ, he knew he'd rise up, that does not make his pain any less.

16. The main point is, he chose to do it. Rather than just forgive them and be about his business, he chose a body, pain, suffering, humiliation, and death. So that he could show man his love and also be the perfect atonement, since he himself is perfect, every one who believes in him is atoned for, in other words, his perfection frees us. You can argue that he could have given his perfection just by his will...but first you will have to show how...second, I will spare you the trouble and say that this goes back to points 10,11,12,13. Give perfection to corrupt beings who will take it for granted and lose it the second they have it, because of their free will. He chose to do it, because through his love he wanted man to change and see that God loves him.

So your atonement question has three reasons
1. It would take perfection to restore us, since two blind people can not lead each other, hence Christ came to lead us spiritually.

2. The atonement is not to please or appease God, it is to show man the love of God, set an example, be the perfect atonement and above all else, it shows the divine understanding of God that only he can fix our spiritual wreck.

3. So God needs to atone us, not to make himself satisfied, he needs to do it because he knows he alone can fix it and second, that he has to show his love, save us without taking away our our free will. So he asks us to accept him, not impose it upon us, neither give us blind pardons without showing his love for we take it for granted and then continue on the wrong path. So he has to do all that, and the only way to do it, is to do what he did.

GOD CAN FORGIVE US WITHOUT ANY ATONEMENT BUT THAT WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM, WHICH IS IMPERFECT NATURE AND CHRIST DIED TO FIX THAT.

A BLIND PARDON WILL NOT SHOW LOVE. IT WILL ONLY SHOW, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN, DO WHAT YOU WILL.

A BLIND PARDON WILL HAVE ZERO EFFECT ON US SINCE WE WILL TAKE THAT PARDON FOR GRANTED, AS ANY CHILD WHO DOES NOT WANT TO BE CORRECTED WILL TAKE ALL PARDONS WITHOUT KNOWING AND SEEING HOW WRONG HE IS.

So understand atonement within this framework.

neo-x wrote:a great mind once said..."the cross shows how far men went to commit sin and how far God went to forgive them."

Let me break it into points,

1. Only perfection survives, eternally, since there is no fault in it.

2.God is eternal, so he is perfect.

3. God made man perfect in spirit so he can be with him.

4. Man was perfect but now is in sin.

5. Man is not perfect now and is therefore not eternal.

6. Since man is not eternal now he pays the price of sin, which is eternal spiritual death, following physical death since after physical death we will face God and account for our life and if we are not perfect nor atoned for, then we will face separation from God.

7. Because of that eternal spiritual death, man cannot free himself, by himself, by his own power, since he is not perfect to begin with.

<snip>

Why is my new-born child not perfect, if God made 'man' perfect? The usual explanation is because of the whole apple thing in the garden of Eden. But I didn't do that, and my child didn't do that. Why would a loving parent hold future generations to account for the actions of their ancestors?

DowTingTom wrote:

neo-x wrote:a great mind once said..."the cross shows how far men went to commit sin and how far God went to forgive them."

Let me break it into points,

1. Only perfection survives, eternally, since there is no fault in it.

2.God is eternal, so he is perfect.

3. God made man perfect in spirit so he can be with him.

4. Man was perfect but now is in sin.

5. Man is not perfect now and is therefore not eternal.

6. Since man is not eternal now he pays the price of sin, which is eternal spiritual death, following physical death since after physical death we will face God and account for our life and if we are not perfect nor atoned for, then we will face separation from God.

7. Because of that eternal spiritual death, man cannot free himself, by himself, by his own power, since he is not perfect to begin with.

<snip>

Why is my new-born child not perfect, if God made 'man' perfect? The usual explanation is because of the whole apple thing in the garden of Eden. But I didn't do that, and my child didn't do that. Why would a loving parent hold future generations to account for the actions of their ancestors?

i think they apple thing is pure metaphor...I have always believed so. I think humans are not perfect because they can chose to do bad. Your child is not perfect in a spiritual way, because he can do good and bad both. Its not that even, I'd say, being perfect would be not to even think of doing bad. Being perfect would be equal to being good, and all that entails. Surely no one fits the bill.

neo-x wrote: i think they apple thing is pure metaphor...I have always believed so. I think humans are not perfect because they can chose to do bad. Your child is not perfect in a spiritual way, because he can do good and bad both. Its not that even, I'd say, being perfect would be not to even think of doing bad. Being perfect would be equal to being good, and all that entails. Surely no one fits the bill.

So God made us perfect and gave us free-will, but because we have free-will we are not perfect? So we were we made perfect or not?

It seems unfair for God to punish me for having a choice GOd himself gave me.

not exactly. you are free in your country, you can do a crime and also not do a crime. but your choice is not someones else fault. its better to have a choice then no choice at all.

neo-x wrote:not exactly. you are free in your country, you can do a crime and also not do a crime. but your choice is not someones else fault. its better to have a choice then no choice at all.

We're not talking about things at a human level here - I understood that it's a central plank of Christianity that God gave us free will and that this is a great gift. Is that not right?