Evidence for God from Science

Hey guys,

I've been told numerous times, that I don't take the time to find out what people believe. I think why you believe what you believe, is more important that what you believe. So, that's my question. What do you base your beliefs on?

Lunalle wrote:Hey guys,

I've been told numerous times, that I don't take the time to find out what people believe. I think why you believe what you believe, is more important that what you believe. So, that's my question. What do you base your beliefs on?

Before you begin, you might consider defining the word belief first.

Why?

For the fact that how you define belief is not how another may define it; thus, much time is wasted listening to several people talking about belief and neither of them are discussing the the same concept.

Let me suggest that this happens a lot when atheist try to engage Christians on matters of faith, God, and spiritual matters. What you have is a cultural misunderstanding fueled by an unwillingness to even understand the culture one is engaged with. To avoid this - please define what you mean by belief?
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Unfortunately your question and answer is lacking the all of the above box, my belief is based on all these things and more.

I think to base your beliefs on only one line of evidence is narrow minded and a big mistake, when forming beliefs we should take a holistic approach.

Sorry I am unable to participate in the questionnaire.

Unfortunately your question and answer is lacking the all of the above box, my belief is based on all these things and more.

I think to base your beliefs on only one line of evidence is narrow minded and a big mistake, when forming beliefs we should take a holistic approach.

Sorry I am unable to participate in the questionnaire.

Agreed

None of the above.

Faith is more than a formula. Faith is a result of a lifetime of thought and action, experience and conviction. Its not a textbook defined two liner. You don't just say oh its based in science or emotion, thats silly. It has to make sense to who has faith, and it may not make sense to anyone else. That is why faith is individual and so are the reasons for having faith.

Ok, I'll try to touch on this quick.

A person's belief is what the person thinks the best answer to a question is. Specifically (in this case) the question is "Does God exist?".

What I'm ultimately trying to get at, is why people picked the answer they've picked.

I think we might be confusing the use of the word "faith", here. Faith is a word, which has been defined. The definition explains the concept of the word "faith". If you mean to say culture, that's a different story. E.x. My religious culture is more than a formula... Well, of course it is, but this isn't a question about your culture, its a question of why you picked a specific answer to a specific question. Culture is a valid answer (e.x. I picked my answer because it aligns with that of my friends and family.)

Of course, you can have a complex answer (e.x. Because of my culture, and my emotions), which I was hoping you would share.

Hope this helps clear things up.

I think logically God must exist. I think at a more personal level that something must survive, call it soul spirit or conscience. I also think that you need an outside agent to kick start things, I'm not talking about the kalam argument, more like, for existence to exist it needs to be born and I think that is where God comes in for me.

I think Christ is the most admirable figure I have read about and I wish I could have seen him firsthand. Philosophically, I think that there is a extreme divide between atheists and theists and I think its all a matter of assumptions. For you its deductive and for me its inductive. You ask why, I ask why not and vice versa.

To me, there is no empirical evidence of God, some think there is and they likely point to what they think the evidence may be, but I think its too indirect so I don't subscribe to it. But you will also know that with God there is a technical limitation of our knowledge, or perhaps what we know so far. But I think we can't ever really know as in empirically that a God must exist. We can however ponder on the marvel of existence and perhaps speculate that there must be one, I am here. But that fact aside I don't think there could ever be any proof of God from nature, as in concrete proof. Such proofs do not exist, because they are by definition subjective to our experience and what we may say, our perception of reality.

In truth the same way you cannot give me a philosophical proof of Nuclear fusion, is the same way I cannot give you an empirical proof of God. The tools are simply incompatible for such respective appliance.

I would agree with Neo here and also say my beliefs about the existence of God are intuitive, everywhere I look and everything I sense has his finger print all over it.

Ecclesiastes 3:11

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."

That eternity that he has placed in our hearts is that intuitive knowledge, we have this restlessness and we search for the cure and for me I believe that cure is God.

I have yet to see an explanation for everything that would satisfy that thirst from my soul.

Dan

Lunalle wrote:Ok, I'll try to touch on this quick.

A person's belief is what the person thinks the best answer to a question is. Specifically (in this case) the question is "Does God exist?".

What I'm ultimately trying to get at, is why people picked the answer they've picked.

I think we might be confusing the use of the word "faith", here. Faith is a word, which has been defined. The definition explains the concept of the word "faith". If you mean to say culture, that's a different story. E.x. My religious culture is more than a formula... Well, of course it is, but this isn't a question about your culture, its a question of why you picked a specific answer to a specific question. Culture is a valid answer (e.x. I picked my answer because it aligns with that of my friends and family.)

Of course, you can have a complex answer (e.x. Because of my culture, and my emotions), which I was hoping you would share.

Hope this helps clear things up.

Lunalle, Here is where the cross cultural misunderstanding comes in. Christians, understand something far different than you do regarding the meaning of believe - belief and you are interjecting your definition into the discussion and disregarding the Christian's.

For example, you cannot separate Believe from Faith. Why - answer look at the NT Greek and you will discover that Believe is the verb form of the noun Faith.

I am posting a composite definition of these two words from AMG and Vines Dictionaries...

Believe -- pisteúō verb; fut. pisteúsō, from pístis (4102), faith. To believe, have faith in, trust, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to trust, signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence.

Faith --- pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (3982), to win over, persuade. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness

Further digging into these words and the Hebrew ideas concerning believe also help uncover the meaning that we Christians use when talking about faith- belief...

Here is how AMG dictionary of OT and NT Words defines Believe in the Hebrew:

’āman: A verb meaning to be firm, to build up, to support, to nurture, or to establish. The primary meaning is that of providing stability and confidence, like a baby would find in the arms of a parent. It is used to signify support of a pillar (2Ki 18:16); nurture and nourishment (Num 11:12; Ruth 4:16; thus, a nurse, 2 Sa 4:4); cradling in one's arms (Isa 60:4); a house firmly founded (1Sa 2:35; 1Sa 25:28); a secure nail that finds a solid place to grip (Isa 22:23); a lasting permanence (Psalms 89:28 [29]; with negative particle, Jer 15:18). Metaphorically, the word conveys the notion of faithfulness and trustworthiness, such that one could fully depend on (Deut 7:9; Job 12:20; Psalms 19:7 [8]; Isa 55:3; Mic 7:5). Therefore, the word can also signify certitude or assurance (Deut 28:66; Job 24:22; Hosea 5:9) and belief, in the sense of receiving something as true and sure (Gen 15:6; Exo 4:5; 2Ch 20:20; Psalms78:22; Isa 53:1; Jonah 3:5).

It is apparent that your take on belief is not the same as ours and that you are interjecting your belief on the word belief. In other words, you are presupposing that all folks share your idea of belief and through such, that you can masterfully prove that belief is mere superstition and any belief in God the same as believing in Santa Claus and thus 'belief' is delusional.

Can you see where you err here?

The Christian idea of believing on Jesus is not limited to mere giving credence to something as a child would believing in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. That is a very narrow minded view that reeks bigotry against people of the Christian Faith. This bigotry is prevalent in the New Atheist camp i.e. militant atheist camp.

The Christian concept of believing in Jesus / God is relational – not mere mental ascent to an idea or creed. To believe on and in someone is to spend time getting to know them, personally, which builds trust and fidelity.

Lunalle, do you love you own father? Do you believe in him? Do you really know him? Does he know you? Can he rely upon you and you upon him? Does he trust you? Do you trust him?

You made a claim on another thread that your own father is no longer crippled – so why do you doubt your father’s claims if you really trust him?

For the Christian, faith/believe is relational and works by love. Leave that totally out of the equation and you’ll continue to miss the concept of Christian Belief. Our concept of faith/believe is not yours and yours is not ours.
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Thanks for writing so much B.W. I appreciate your points. I'm not trying to belittle you, but I'm a bit frustrated. I'm trying to ask a simple question, and you're telling me I'm not asking a good question (I think).

There is a question "Does God exist?"
We all picked an answer, so why'd you pick whatever answer you picked?

I'm not talking about Christian faith, or Christian belief. I know Christians define these words different than atheists, and their faith and beliefs are very important to them. Maybe I used poor wording in the question. I've been challenged to get to know you guys better, so I'm trying.

P.S. I'm not sure why you're so curious about my father, but the answer to all of your questions is no. Unless you define love as either caring for someone, or a biological bias. Sure I care about him, and sure I'm biologically biased towards him. I don't accept his claim because a) I don't accept anyone's claims, just because they're an authority figure, and b) his claim is detrimental to understanding what happened.

EDIT: Will you please define 'love' for me, so I get a better understanding of your answer? Thanks!

Lunalle wrote:Will you please define 'love' for me, so I get a better understanding of your answer? Thanks!

Real true love is an action as described here, not just some fuzzy feeling deep inside, it takes self sacrifice.

1 Corinthians 13:4-13

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.



Dan

Lunalle wrote:Thanks for writing so much B.W. I appreciate your points. I'm not trying to belittle you, but I'm a bit frustrated. I'm trying to ask a simple question, and you're telling me I'm not asking a good question (I think).

There is a question "Does God exist?"
We all picked an answer, so why'd you pick whatever answer you picked?

I'm not talking about Christian faith, or Christian belief. I know Christians define these words different than atheists, and their faith and beliefs are very important to them. Maybe I used poor wording in the question. I've been challenged to get to know you guys better, so I'm trying.

P.S. I'm not sure why you're so curious about my father, but the answer to all of your questions is no. Unless you define love as either caring for someone, or a biological bias. Sure I care about him, and sure I'm biologically biased towards him. I don't accept his claim because a) I don't accept anyone's claims, just because they're an authority figure, and b) his claim is detrimental to understanding what happened.

EDIT: Will you please define 'love' for me, so I get a better understanding of your answer? Thanks!

In regards to belief – you did not define it in your poll and you forgot an all of the above selection as well too. Best folks can do is to follow some of your post and see that belief is a big negative to you. The poll can be skewed to cherry pick answers, which makes it, not the best format to use. No offence intended in my comments here.

Now on to why I mentioned your father. On one thread you mentioned he was healed in a dramatic way the prevented a lifelong crippling effect. In this report, you seemed calloused toward him. This may be due to many things because there are no perfect families. Good positive families are hard to come by. Negative and broken families come a dime a dozen. Let me digress a bit and come back later to answer your questions.

In some families, support and nurture is often withheld, emotional abuse, neglect, selfishness, favoritism, and a whole host of negative stuff happens. Divorce rates, split families, kids caught in the middle, all skew one’s concept of love. Parents can conceal and withhold affection or be over affectionate. There are many differing factors.

There is a reason I ask you about your father since you brought him up is to show you something – was there food on the table, were you ever abandoned by your father and left to fend for yourself, did he ever fail to provide for you while you were growing up? Did he, in the only way he knew how, care for you, teach you things? Was he silent in all this? What caused the split between him and you?

We look for easy answers in complex ways. Some seek science alone, yet, science alone cannot explain everything. Without the ability of faith, no scientist, no musician, no inventor, and no innovator could look at those things that are not, and create from the world around us, what once was a thought/idea. The Scientific method would be impossible without faith that aids the creativity to experiment and test. All people are by their nature, creatures of faith.

Human Faith is misapplied and twists away from God and seeks other things to place faith in, such as science, atheism, what one creates, etc and etc. We all create things such as ideas, illusions in the mind, suspicion, doubt, fears, revenge, etc, and place great faith in these. You see, a person is committed to whatever they place their faith in and are obedient to it, often at all cost.

Some of the negative results are plain in families and how they interact as I mentioned above. So what have you placed great faith in? - Yourself as the final authority? Faith in faith or faith in your own faith is not good as it fails to be tempered and balanced by something far greater than self. We as human beings were designed with the ability to operate by faith – seeing what is not as though it is and create, design, live, exercise dominion,, plan, store, think... Do you see this?

With this comes responsibility and it is here we fail. You claim, now, that you do not believe in God and place great faith in that idea and base assumptions on it to justify your life course and actions. In this, like the rest of humanity, you miss the mark of what God intended.

Daniel posted the Christian definition of love from 1 Co 13:4-13 so you have that to work off.

Without God’s love, our faith remains selfishly focused and ‘we get no place fast.’ So God sent forth his means to restart – reboot out faith. This is why I mentioned your father.

You stated that you cared but did not love you father. With that, think for a moment that you are God and humanity is represented by your father. With an attitude such as yours, how easy would it be to write him off and let him just fade away? Is that fair and just? Maybe, in your eyes it would be due to all the authority not exercised correctly toward you.

It was that way when humanity fell away from God into disbelief. What did he do?

John 3:16-31, NASB "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Did he really abandon us or set about to restore our faith in him who loved so much as to come as one of us, in a world of mixed up, crazy families, and broken homes, expose what sin is, dying to do so, so that we can be resurrected into His reconciliation, healed and released."

Faith – believing – belief involves commitment, fidelity to what one believes in. This kind of faith works by love. The kind humanity lacks. To show this, would you die in order to heal your father thus restoring the relationship broken between you and he?

For you, such a death is pointless because your faith indicates that all there is a nothingness that waits after death but would you still, knowing that?

How you answer indicates love.

In that is found the answer to define love.

Daniel posted the Christian definition of love from 1 Co 13:4-13. Do you measure up to that in your relationship with your father?

Faith works by Love and the antithesis of this would be Faith works by Pride.

What is the focus of your faith?
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Hey B.W. thanks again for the detailed post. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to provide some brief answers, as my schedule is tight.

B. W. wrote:In regards to belief – you did not define it in your poll and you forgot an all of the above selection as well too. Best folks can do is to follow some of your post and see that belief is a big negative to you. The poll can be skewed to cherry pick answers, which makes it, not the best format to use. No offence intended in my comments here.

Right, I didn't define it. I've already apologized for that. I intentionally didn't provide an "all of the above" answer, based on the way I define "belief", and I asked that complex answers be explained in posts. No offence taken.

B. W. wrote:Now on to why I mentioned your father. On one thread you mentioned he was healed in a dramatic way the prevented a lifelong crippling effect. In this report, you seemed calloused toward him. This may be due to many things because there are no perfect families. Good positive families are hard to come by. Negative and broken families come a dime a dozen. Let me digress a bit and come back later to answer your questions.

Sure. Honestly, I am somewhat calloused to him. The fact he's not crippled for life, is awesome for him.

B. W. wrote:There is a reason I ask you about your father since you brought him up is to show you something – was there food on the table, were you ever abandoned by your father and left to fend for yourself, did he ever fail to provide for you while you were growing up? Did he, in the only way he knew how, care for you, teach you things? Was he silent in all this? What caused the split between him and you?

Food? Usually, not very nutritious though. Abandoned? Yes. Fail to provide? Yes. Did he care and teach? To a degree. Was he silent? Usually. What caused the split? Really briefly: His actions showed he cared more about himself and his religion, than his children. The ultimate expression of that was he abandoned me.

B. W. wrote:We look for easy answers in complex ways. Some seek science alone, yet, science alone cannot explain everything. Without the ability of faith, no scientist, no musician, no inventor, and no innovator could look at those things that are not, and create from the world around us, what once was a thought/idea. The Scientific method would be impossible without faith that aids the creativity to experiment and test. All people are by their nature, creatures of faith.

Yes, you're right. I'm trying not to jump to conclusions about where you're going with this.

B. W. wrote:Human Faith is misapplied and twists away from God and seeks other things to place faith in, such as science, atheism, what one creates, etc and etc.

I disagree.

B. W. wrote:We all create things such as ideas, illusions in the mind, suspicion, doubt, fears, revenge, etc, and place great faith in these. You see, a person is committed to whatever they place their faith in and are obedient to it, often at all cost.

Yes, and I think that's usually dangerous.

B. W. wrote:So what have you placed great faith in?

A set of basic concepts that let me live a fairly "normal" life. E.x. We're not all brains in a jar, running a simulation of our lives.

B. W. wrote:Yourself as the final authority?

Absolutely not.

B. W. wrote:We as human beings were designed with the ability to operate by faith... Do you see this?

Yes, and I think that's usually dangerous.

B. W. wrote:With this comes responsibility and it is here we fail. You claim, now, that you do not believe in God and place great faith in that idea and base assumptions on it to justify your life course and actions. In this, like the rest of humanity, you miss the mark of what God intended.

Uhhh.... ok?

B. W. wrote:Without God’s love, our faith remains selfishly focused and ‘we get no place fast.’ So God sent forth his means to restart – reboot out faith. This is why I mentioned your father.

I disagree.

B. W. wrote:You stated that you cared but did not love you father. With that, think for a moment that you are God and humanity is represented by your father. With an attitude such as yours, how easy would it be to write him off and let him just fade away? Is that fair and just? Maybe, in your eyes it would be due to all the authority not exercised correctly toward you.

Well, if there is a God, I expect he's already done that. Sure it is fair.

B. W. wrote:It was that way when humanity fell away from God into disbelief. What did he do? John 3:16-31, NASB...

So, I don't believe in God, I don't think John 3:16 is true, so not sure why I should take the rest of the passage into any serious consideration. I know what you're telling me, I've read the bible many times, I've even preached from it. I don't think it is right. I don't accept what it says, on faith, or on any other basis.

B. W. wrote:This kind of faith works by love. The kind humanity lacks. To show this, would you die in order to heal your father thus restoring the relationship broken between you and he?

You already know I wouldn't, because you already know I don't love him. If you want to say the world needs more love, great. I agree with that. Although, that's a lot different than both the common label of "Christian", and the actual doctrines.

B. W. wrote:Do you measure up to that in your relationship with your father?

Again, no.

B. W. wrote:What is the focus of your faith?

I attempt to have as little faith as possible. I exercising just enough of it, to lead a relatively "normal" life. E.x. I do things, because I have faith I'm more than just a brain in a vat, although I accept it is possible.

Now, my answer is science. So I'd like you to appreciate science a bit more. Science doesn't claim ultimate, or divine knowledge. It says "This is our best understanding right now". The application of science is used to make the world a better place. For example, the things encompassed in the Theory of Evolution are applied to develop vaccines. Yes, it operates off a minimal set of presuppositions. It's goal is to make things better, and further develop knowledge, so we can make things even better. It's not static, it is constantly evolving, and improving. I hope that helps cast it in a better light, and people will realize the importance of science.

Lunalle wrote:The application of science is used to make the world a better place.

Or not. Atomic bombs, chemical weapons, biological weapons...

“To every man is given the key to the gates of heaven. The same key opens the gates of hell.
And so it is with science.”
― Richard P. Feynman