Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:First thing that came to my mind is this: Jesus did not want to provide us with fishes but instead taught us to fish. He came, showed us our sinful nature, taught us to wisdom. He gave us the wisdom, the apostles and teachers who then were to continue spreading the wisdom.

Why should he have stayed? Also, Holy Spirit was given us, right?

B. W. wrote:Actually he deposited the Holy Spirit (HS) within us. He has never left us or forsaken us. however, what you see and others here know all to well is that some Christians do not let the HS have much or any influence over their lives. Nevertheless, the numbers of believers that do not live by the HS influence does not negate the numbers who live by the Spirit. Most of the contention non-Christians have is against what they see in Christian people.

For example, One study (cannot recall its name at this moment), said that on average - out of 100 Christians only about 15 live according to a transformed life - the real deal christian life. The others, lived and behaved no different than non-Christians. The study went on and showed that the world's influence along with limited christian focus on its teaching as well as a lack of actual discipleship practiced contributes to this lack of the real deal Christians in abundance. I Think the study is mentioned in the book -' UnChristian' or the '360 Degree Disciple'...

That is a call to repentance, so I thank you 'ultimate777' for pointing this out through your comment. The Fact is, Jesus is here, within believers, and never has left nor forsaken us. He uses many means to awaken people to this fact... even you...
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B. W. wrote:I was citing a study on US Christians from the Barna Group by David Kinnaman and the findings are recorded in the book Un-Christian, by Kinnaman and Lyons on pages 46-48 (paper back).

The book Un-Christian is a Christian book based on recent data collected by the Barna polling Group concerning perceptions of those who are not Christians toward those who are.

Basically the study found that only 15 percent of professing American Christians were perceived as the the real deal Christians who walked the walk and talked the talk and the rest - no different than the non-christian world due to their conduct and behavior.

It went on to show from that study, that this is due to the fact, as brought out in the book, 360 Degree Disciple by Alton Garrison, that the reason for this was a failure by the Church at large to only focus on one aspect of the gospel while neglecting other aspects of gospel message concerning the Holy Spirit's role in a believer, discipleship, and maturity. This neglect contributes to the why, only around 15 percent of Christians are perceived as the real deal by outsiders.

I would agree with Kinnaman's findings and Garrison's point as I run across this a lot and hear from many Christians themselves the desire to move on to the deeper tings of God and when they do, they sometimes get shut down by their local church hierarchy. Many simply leave the local church and live quiet lives, and some do amazing work for the Lord, all unseen by the world at large.

Just telling it like it is.

B.W. wrote:Ultimate and others may say what they may but sometimes God does use non-believers to slap Believers back to a godly conscience... for correction

Now back to Ultimate's comment - I have seen an amputated toe literally reappear upon a woman's' foot and that did not draw a crowd. Only those who knew her closely were affected.

B.W. wrote:His Miracles and Jesus physically walking on earth only stirred up those that are h-ll bent to discredit God at all cost - to hate more. Therefore, it would do no good for Him to do so until the appointed time when he will return upon earth.

B.W. wrote:The Holy Spirit is more than able to develop a Christian to reflect His will upon this earth as his own hands and feet. Fact that he uses you to rebuke apathy shows that He is still at work awaking Christians to their real callings in life, reflect Jesus' character upon this earth. There is a character transformation that goes on inside every Christian, it is sad, that many Church groups hinder this transformation instead of embracing it wholly. This means, change comes slowly.

Question to you Ulimate - Jesus did come to earth and did what he was supposed to do and it has not changed you - has it?

B.W. wrote:If he still remained in physical human form on earth today the same result would be had on you - would it not?

B.W. wrote:and people today would still be seeking ways to get rid of Jesus because he dares tell the truth about the human condition and accountability. He still speaks today, thru the power of the Holy Spirit and changes lives and that still does not change your modus operandi - does it?

ultimate777 wrote:

B. W. wrote:I was citing a study on US Christians from the Barna Group by David Kinnaman and the findings are recorded in the book Un-Christian, by Kinnaman and Lyons on pages 46-48 (paper back).

The book Un-Christian is a Christian book based on recent data collected by the Barna polling Group concerning perceptions of those who are not Christians toward those who are.

Basically the study found that only 15 percent of professing American Christians were perceived as the the real deal Christians who walked the walk and talked the talk and the rest - no different than the non-christian world due to their conduct and behavior.

It went on to show from that study, that this is due to the fact, as brought out in the book, 360 Degree Disciple by Alton Garrison, that the reason for this was a failure by the Church at large to only focus on one aspect of the gospel while neglecting other aspects of gospel message concerning the Holy Spirit's role in a believer, discipleship, and maturity. This neglect contributes to the why, only around 15 percent of Christians are perceived as the real deal by outsiders.

I would agree with Kinnaman's findings and Garrison's point as I run across this a lot and hear from many Christians themselves the desire to move on to the deeper tings of God and when they do, they sometimes get shut down by their local church hierarchy. Many simply leave the local church and live quiet lives, and some do amazing work for the Lord, all unseen by the world at large.

Just telling it like it is.

What does the above have to do with anything?

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:Ultimate and others may say what they may but sometimes God does use non-believers to slap Believers back to a godly conscience... for correction

Now back to Ultimate's comment - I have seen an amputated toe literally reappear upon a woman's' foot and that did not draw a crowd. Only those who knew her closely were affected.

You can be darn sure if hard evidence of it were available and spread about many would be affected

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:His Miracles and Jesus physically walking on earth only stirred up those that are h-ll bent to discredit God at all cost - to hate more. Therefore, it would do no good for Him to do so until the appointed time when he will return upon earth.

Of course there will be some like that. There will be some who will believe no matter what, but most will be in neither category and with a push could go either way.

That is who we should be most concerned about.

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:The Holy Spirit is more than able to develop a Christian to reflect His will upon this earth as his own hands and feet. Fact that he uses you to rebuke apathy shows that He is still at work awaking Christians to their real callings in life, reflect Jesus' character upon this earth. There is a character transformation that goes on inside every Christian, it is sad, that many Church groups hinder this transformation instead of embracing it wholly. This means, change comes slowly.

Question to you Ultimate - Jesus did come to earth and did what he was supposed to do and it has not changed you - has it?

Your wrong about me, now you are getting nasty for a Christian, if you are a Christian.

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:If he still remained in physical human form on earth today the same result would be had on you - would it not?

It would strengthen my belief.

But never mind me, what about all the billions who have lived since the Ascension?

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:and people today would still be seeking ways to get rid of Jesus because he dares tell the truth about the human condition and accountability. He still speaks today, thru the power of the Holy Spirit and changes lives and that still does not change your modus operandi - does it?

As I repeat SOME would be like that, I did not need you to tell me that and you are doing Christ no favors by talking as you do, quite the opposite.

B. W. wrote:

ultimate777 wrote:

B. W. wrote:I was citing a study on US Christians from the Barna Group by David Kinnaman and the findings are recorded in the book Un-Christian, by Kinnaman and Lyons on pages 46-48 (paper back).

The book Un-Christian is a Christian book based on recent data collected by the Barna polling Group concerning perceptions of those who are not Christians toward those who are.

Basically the study found that only 15 percent of professing American Christians were perceived as the the real deal Christians who walked the walk and talked the talk and the rest - no different than the non-christian world due to their conduct and behavior.

It went on to show from that study, that this is due to the fact, as brought out in the book, 360 Degree Disciple by Alton Garrison, that the reason for this was a failure by the Church at large to only focus on one aspect of the gospel while neglecting other aspects of gospel message concerning the Holy Spirit's role in a believer, discipleship, and maturity. This neglect contributes to the why, only around 15 percent of Christians are perceived as the real deal by outsiders.

I would agree with Kinnaman's findings and Garrison's point as I run across this a lot and hear from many Christians themselves the desire to move on to the deeper tings of God and when they do, they sometimes get shut down by their local church hierarchy. Many simply leave the local church and live quiet lives, and some do amazing work for the Lord, all unseen by the world at large.

Just telling it like it is.

What does the above have to do with anything?

Much in everyway…

Uh, no.

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:Ultimate and others may say what they may but sometimes God does use non-believers to slap Believers back to a godly conscience... for correction

Now back to Ultimate's comment - I have seen an amputated toe literally reappear upon a woman's' foot and that did not draw a crowd. Only those who knew her closely were affected.

You can be darn sure if hard evidence of it were available and spread about many would be affected

Jesus did a lot on earth in Israel’s ancient day healing, miracles, etc and he was betrayed, lied about, mocked, ridiculed, and put on show trial and killed.

The answer would be the same today… and is…

Modern technology for Jesus to be seen and heard is available today, and why should Jesus allow himself to be physically harmed? The Opposition was only entitled to harm him once, and they could only do it because he let them. This is important.
Also,for the third time Jesus will have his detractors no matter how strong the evidence for him is and his supporters no matter how weak it might seem. DENY THAT IF YOU CAN BUT DON"T IGNORE It, OKAY?!!
Aseaq

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:His Miracles and Jesus physically walking on earth only stirred up those that are h-ll bent to discredit God at all cost - to hate more. Therefore, it would do no good for Him to do so until the appointed time when he will return upon earth.

Of course there will be some like that. There will be some who will believe no matter what, but most will be in neither category and with a push could go either way.

That is who we should be most concerned about.

That is why I mentioned the above concerning the polls cited. Many Christians do go about doing what Matt 28:19-20 says toward those that would bounce either way… Then there are others who do not. So again I thank you helping to point this out (in an indirect way you did).

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:The Holy Spirit is more than able to develop a Christian to reflect His will upon this earth as his own hands and feet. Fact that he uses you to rebuke apathy shows that He is still at work awaking Christians to their real callings in life, reflect Jesus' character upon this earth. There is a character transformation that goes on inside every Christian, it is sad, that many Church groups hinder this transformation instead of embracing it wholly. This means, change comes slowly.

Question to you Ultimate - Jesus did come to earth and did what he was supposed to do and it has not changed you - has it?

Your wrong about me, now you are getting nasty for a Christian, if you are a Christian.

If I am wrong, then correct me – when did you come to Christ and why? Please enlighten us – If he has, then I apologize.

I was raised from birth as a Christian, as were most Christians, but of course, not all.

If so, then are you reflecting him on earth – praying for folks – walking in the power of the Holy Spirit?

That's for God to know, not you or me.

Again the reason I pointed out the poll results cited above has a reason, not to get on your case, but everyone’s…even mine own…

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:If he still remained in physical human form on earth today the same result would be had on you - would it not?

It would strengthen my belief.

But never mind me, what about all the billions who have lived since the Ascension?

He still lives within folks today by the power of the Holy Spirit. So He is still on earth today. Problem is with us due to what the Barna Poll results tell us. Churches are skipping the deeper life teachings, and mostly stuck on one mode of operation. How many places focus of the deeper life with Christ and discipleship/apprenticeship, Holy Spirit giftings etc and how to use such appropriately, effectively, and correctly???

THe Holy Spirit could accomplish much more with him in the flesh here than not.

Is it any wonder there is a lack to what you and others desire to experience?

Again, thank you for pointing this out...

ultimate777 wrote:

B.W. wrote:and people today would still be seeking ways to get rid of Jesus because he dares tell the truth about the human condition and accountability. He still speaks today, thru the power of the Holy Spirit and changes lives and that still does not change your modus operandi - does it?

As I repeat SOME would be like that, I did not need you to tell me that and you are doing Christ no favors by talking as you do, quite the opposite.

I was making a point – and it was this:

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. NKJV

Trying to stir you and others up as the verses above state….

We all complain that we don’t see Jesus today working like he did on earth during 30 AD era. Yet the word is plain – He is within us…

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Read John 14:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 also…

Things are still going on in small degrees and even with that – would it be enough to convince you?

That is a good question for us all. This question provokes me to act and do what He says; therefore, may the same provoke you and others to seek the Lord on what they are to do. Then maybe, we will see more things happening. Paul said it this way to us all….

2Co 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others. NKJV

Then again as it is written:

John 17:14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." NASB

And we should expect no different…

Again Ulitmate, thank you for pointing out the need for more of Christ needed in the lives of believers to do his works more.

In small degrees, many do, but, people are still people – doubting, complaining, etc and etc… so the good things Jesus still does on earth is not paid any attention too in any great degree...

There are many reasons for this - one is abuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and some white suits making a mockery of them. We can cite these in abundance but when the real deal occurs, the effect is quite different on the hearts of men and women. Some believe and others - well - get hardened in disbelief.

Nothing has changed since the 30 AD era...

...Jesus is still on earth working
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ultimate777 wrote:... Why don't you collect your thoughts, write an alternative history story where its 2013 and Jesus is still here, and incorporate in the story how things would be worse today than they actually are? Or would that be sacreligious? If not, do you have any other excuses? You might include key things that happen over the years.

We may get to the point, this "thing" will not allow us anymore quotes. That happened to me once. Don't know how to continue if it does it again.

1over137 wrote:Only 3 levels of quotes is allowed. Instead of clicking on Quote on the post start with blank post and click on Quote button, fourth from left after B i u buttons. When you click on quote then insert copied text between brackets.

B.W. wrote:Actually, he is still on earth today withing the lives of believers. That was the point that you, in an indirect way, asked. The reason for the Barna research I posted was to demonstrate why so few see Jesus within the Church (the American Church as the research was geared toward that demographic).

Fact is, there are people still doing what he did, praying for folks, seeing people healed, doing incredible things. I thought of asking some of these people to come on the forum and those healed too. For example, one man who had cardiac arrest and new heart valve placed in due to this. His heart was damaged. One of these folks I mentioned prayed for him. So he has the before and after MRI and CAT scans of his heart. One shows the unreparable damage and one showing the after prayer of the heart undamaged. The heart valve is still there but the damaged part of the heart is new. I thought of it, then it dawned on me that some people would simply accuse the man of forgery. Why should we want to put people up in front of the guns of public ridicule and unbelief to be mocked? No, I cannot do that.

Another example, we had one individual claim his father was healed in an amazing way and is no longer crippled. Yet, the son who stated this event, refuses that God had any part of it. This was but a fluke to him he can't explain. As I stated before, miracles and healings do not convince people in great mass that Jesus is alive and well today. Some will but the large majority would pay only limited attention and soon forget as they go about their daily routines.

I would suggest, you go out on a mission trip, maybe overseas and see for yourself what real deal Christians are doing. You might see a few of these events yourself and have your own inquiry answered. The real deal Christians I am speaking of, well, are unknown and do not make much of themselves in self exaltation. They do what the Lord wants done and 'gets it done.' They are out there. All you have to do, is go seek. Give it a try, pray to find some of these folks and try a mission's trip or two or three with people who are not timid about praying for people, etc. See if it doesn't change you.

1 Co 12 reveals that we who belong to Him are the hands and feet of Christ on earth today. He is here. The problem is with us. Again, in an indirect way, you brought this to the forefront with your comments. It needs to be discussed and Christian people do need to be challenged. Why? because for two long so many have only been taught to stagnate in pews rather than have their faith increase and actually believe with action of a change life demonstrated with power. Real deal Christian will tell you - Through pain comes change. That is a mystery the readers have to figure out on their own.

Also ask yourself and ponder this in a realistic way: What would you like prayer for right now?

As for the quote function - there is a work around. and all you do is type the brackets and the interior where you desire them to be. I'll show you a basic format but will add spaces between the = sign and / bar so that the brackets can be read here

[quote = "ultimate777"][quote = "Another name avatar"] The - Another name avatar - quote goes here and ends with this [/ quote] Next, You write you response here and then add the last -> [/ quote]

Be sure you remove the spaces I placed between the = and / signs so the program can read it.
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