Evidence for God from Science

Lunalle wrote

I guess my expectations of God are higher than yours. What Jesus said (according to most English translations of the Bible) is not what I'd expect a God to say.

I am interested to hear what you think God should have said if he came here and why he should say these things.

This question goes out to everyone, what would you expect God to say if he came to Earth and why would you expect him to say these things.


Dan

Hey Dan,

I'm tempted to just reject your question, First of all, because you didn't define God. There are hundreds of thousands of gods, and thousands of variants of God. That makes it nearly impossible to properly answer the question, but I'll try.

My assumption of the properties of God, which form the basis of my answer:
1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
3) God cares what I think.
4) God supplies me with knowledge.
5) God wants me to believe he exists.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Another problem I have with your question, is I expect God wouldn't say anything. Language is a very crude tool, and I'd expect better of him, based on the first two points.

I don't know what method of communication God would use, although I expect it to be along the lines of direct mind/brain manipulation. I'd also like to nip the free will argument in the bud before it starts. Increasing knowledge, does not negate free will. If increasing knowledge negated free will, God must not have any free will, because he has all knowledge.

God knows exactly what it would take for me to change my beliefs (based on point 1), and he'd do whatever it took. (based on points 2 and 6).

God would not judge us, but improve us.

Lunalle wrote:Hey Dan,

I'm tempted to just reject your question, First of all, because you didn't define God. There are hundreds of thousands of gods, and thousands of variants of God. That makes it nearly impossible to properly answer the question, but I'll try.

My assumption of the properties of God, which form the basis of my answer:
1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
3) God cares what I think.
4) God supplies me with knowledge.
5) God wants me to believe he exists.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Another problem I have with your question, is I expect God wouldn't say anything. Language is a very crude tool, and I'd expect better of him, based on the first two points.

I don't know what method of communication God would use, although I expect it to be along the lines of direct mind/brain manipulation. I'd also like to nip the free will argument in the bud before it starts. Increasing knowledge, does not negate free will. If increasing knowledge negated free will, God must not have any free will, because he has all knowledge.

God knows exactly what it would take for me to change my beliefs (based on point 1), and he'd do whatever it took. (based on points 2 and 6).

God would not judge us, but improve us.

hmmm???

You said this:

I expect God wouldn't say anything. Language is a very crude tool, and I'd expect better of him....

Let's look Rom 1:19, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead..." NKJV

You stated this too:

God knows exactly what it would take for me to change my beliefs (based on point 1), and he'd do whatever it took. (based on points 2 and 6).

1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Is your father still crippled?

You claim that

God would not judge us, but improve us.

John 3:15-19, "Then everyone who believes in him can live with God forever. "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son. Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life. "God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world. He sent his Son to save the world through him. Anyone who believes in him is not judged. But anyone who does not believe is judged already. He has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. "Here is the judgment. Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light. They loved darkness because what they did was evil." NIrV

And these words have no meaning to you?

John 3:19 "Here is the judgment. Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light. They loved darkness because what they did was evil."

Isa 26:10 Grace is shown to sinful people. But they still don't learn to do what is right. They keep on doing evil even in a land where others are honest and fair. They don't have any respect for the majesty of the LORD. NIrV
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B. W. wrote: hmmm???

You said this:

I expect God wouldn't say anything. Language is a very crude tool, and I'd expect better of him....

Let's look Rom 1:19, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead..." NKJV

I'm familiar with that type of thinking, and I reject it.

B. W. wrote: You stated this too:

God knows exactly what it would take for me to change my beliefs (based on point 1), and he'd do whatever it took. (based on points 2 and 6).

1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Is your father still crippled?

No, and that is obviously not enough to convince me God exists.

B. W. wrote: You claim that

God would not judge us, but improve us.

John 3:15-19, "Then everyone who believes in him can live with God forever. "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son. Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life. "God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world. He sent his Son to save the world through him. Anyone who believes in him is not judged. But anyone who does not believe is judged already. He has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. "Here is the judgment. Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light. They loved darkness because what they did was evil." NIrV

And these words have no meaning to you?

John 3:19 "Here is the judgment. Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light. They loved darkness because what they did was evil."

Isa 26:10 Grace is shown to sinful people. But they still don't learn to do what is right. They keep on doing evil even in a land where others are honest and fair. They don't have any respect for the majesty of the LORD. NIrV
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Those words have very little meaning to me, because they are directly contradictory.

Anyone who believes in him is not judged. But anyone who does not believe is judged already.

This is incoherent, at best.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Lunalle wrote

I guess my expectations of God are higher than yours. What Jesus said (according to most English translations of the Bible) is not what I'd expect a God to say.

I am interested to hear what you think God should have said if he came here and why he should say these things.

This question goes out to everyone, what would you expect God to say if he came to Earth and why would you expect him to say these things.


Dan

I would assume that a being of God's immense power and knowledge ( whatever that maybe) would accommodate what HE says to WHO He is saying it to and depending on what message He would want them to understand.

In regards to Jesus,
He spoke to 1st century Palestinian jews and dealt with things that directly effected them at the time, He also addressed issues of who the messiah is to be and WHAT he is to do and WHO's messiah He will be.
He gave them lessons that were moral, theological and even practical but it is clear by the writings that He focused on the spiritual more than the material, that He focused on salvation of the spirit above salvation of the body or the "corporate identity" that was Israel.

He addressed issues that THEY were having then BUT also "life lessons" that transcended their time and age.

Well said Paul. I agree completely.

Lunalle wrote:Hey Dan,

I'm tempted to just reject your question, First of all, because you didn't define God. There are hundreds of thousands of gods, and thousands of variants of God. That makes it nearly impossible to properly answer the question, but I'll try.

Which God is irrelevant to the question, I don't need to define it because it can be whatever you want or imagine God to be.

My assumption of the properties of God, which form the basis of my answer:
1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
3) God cares what I think.
4) God supplies me with knowledge.
5) God wants me to believe he exists.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Sounds like a good definition to me.

Another problem I have with your question, is I expect God wouldn't say anything. Language is a very crude tool, and I'd expect better of him, based on the first two points.

So how would we understand what God wants without language? please elaborate.

I don't know what method of communication God would use, although I expect it to be along the lines of direct mind/brain manipulation.

Please elaborate how we would understand without the use of language.

I'd also like to nip the free will argument in the bud before it starts. Increasing knowledge, does not negate free will. If increasing knowledge negated free will, God must not have any free will, because he has all knowledge.

Not sure why you bought up freewill, but yes I agree that knowledge has nothing to do with freewill, your point it moot.

God knows exactly what it would take for me to change my beliefs (based on point 1), and he'd do whatever it took. (based on points 2 and 6).

So what exactly would it take to change your beliefs?

God would not judge us, but improve us.

Jesus covers this point, he did not come to judge but came to improve us and offer us a way out of our bad ways.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


So it seems to me that you think that all the knowledge in the universe would improve us, is this correct? Please elaborate how this would change/improve us because it seems to me that no matter what knowledge we acquire we still seems to do the wrong thing to ourselves and each other. Knowledge is power and power can be very dangerous if it is in the wrong hands, it takes wisdom to know how to wield that sort of power, we have some great examples from history of knowledge and power being used incorrectly. I think God has not given us complete knowledge because we lack the wisdom to be able to use it for good, it would be like giving/teaching a baby how to fire a gun and expect it to not hurt other people or itself.



Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Lunalle wrote:Hey Dan,

I'm tempted to just reject your question, First of all, because you didn't define God. There are hundreds of thousands of gods, and thousands of variants of God. That makes it nearly impossible to properly answer the question, but I'll try.

Which God is irrelevant to the question, I don't need to define it because it can be whatever you want or imagine God to be.

My assumption of the properties of God, which form the basis of my answer:
1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
3) God cares what I think.
4) God supplies me with knowledge.
5) God wants me to believe he exists.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Sounds like a good definition to me.

Ok, cool. At least we agree on this part.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Another problem I have with your question, is I expect God wouldn't say anything. Language is a very crude tool, and I'd expect better of him, based on the first two points.

So how would we understand what God wants without language? please elaborate.

Yikes, I'm not a neuro-scientist, but I'll try. We don't have a solid understanding of the brain, so take this with a grain of salt. What we have observed, is that the brain is an extremely complex system utilizing chemical and electrical energy. On the basis of these observations, changing the chemicals and "electrical pathways" would be far more efficient than language.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

I'd also like to nip the free will argument in the bud before it starts. Increasing knowledge, does not negate free will. If increasing knowledge negated free will, God must not have any free will, because he has all knowledge.

Not sure why you bought up freewill, but yes I agree that knowledge has nothing to do with freewill, your point it moot.

I brought it up, because in my experience, this question leads to a debate on free will. I'd rather not have that debate, or at least have it in a separate thread.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

God knows exactly what it would take for me to change my beliefs (based on point 1), and he'd do whatever it took. (based on points 2 and 6).

So what exactly would it take to change your beliefs?

I assume we're talking about my belief that God does not exist as a conscious entity? Well, brain manipulation (as explained above) would do it. Becoming a God would do it. God bringing perfection to the world would do it. On the premise of point 1 and 2, I don't think this is unreasonable.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

God would not judge us, but improve us.

Jesus covers this point, he did not come to judge but came to improve us and offer us a way out of our bad ways.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Just like the mafia man didn't come to trash your store, but to protect it?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So it seems to me that you think that all the knowledge in the universe would improve us, is this correct? Please elaborate how this would change/improve us because it seems to me that no matter what knowledge we acquire we still seems to do the wrong thing to ourselves and each other. Knowledge is power and power can be very dangerous if it is in the wrong hands, it takes wisdom to know how to wield that sort of power, we have some great examples from history of knowledge and power being used incorrectly. I think God has not given us complete knowledge because we lack the wisdom to be able to use it for good, it would be like giving/teaching a baby how to fire a gun and expect it to not hurt other people or itself.

That is not quite correct. I agree, knowledge is power, and I can only hope it is used for more good than bad, but it is just hope.

In regards to knowledge and free will.
If a higher life form/being wanted us to know him in the most "non-coersive" way, a way that leaves us free to reject Him or a accept Him based on US and NOT on Him "forcing himself on us, then the freeness of being able to reject Him is very important.
God does NOT coming crashing into our world like a "gang buster" giving us no choice BUT to accept Him.
He approaches us with love BUT also fairness and justice.
We are free to reject Him and we are fully aware of the consequences.

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to knowledge and free will.
If a higher life form/being wanted us to know him in the most "non-coersive" way, a way that leaves us free to reject Him or a accept Him based on US and NOT on Him "forcing himself on us, then the freeness of being able to reject Him is very important.

Here we go with free will...

What possible justification can be offered for a higher life form/being to want us to know them in the least coercive way? Furthermore, how do you justify speaking for the intent of this "higher life form"?

I don't know about you, but when I "want someone to know me", I introduce myself, not toss rocks in their general direction while hiding.

Lunalle wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to knowledge and free will.
If a higher life form/being wanted us to know him in the most "non-coersive" way, a way that leaves us free to reject Him or a accept Him based on US and NOT on Him "forcing himself on us, then the freeness of being able to reject Him is very important.

Here we go with free will...

What possible justification can be offered for a higher life form/being to want us to know them in the least coercive way? Furthermore, how do you justify speaking for the intent of this "higher life form"?

I don't know about you, but when I "want someone to know me", I introduce myself, not toss rocks in their general direction while hiding.

We are not talking about you or me and I certainly do NOT profee to know the mind of God.
That you don't see the validity of the argument is not my problem.
That you don't see the issues with a uber-advanced being making Himself know to a lower species and all the issues that may come from that, is again not my concern.
God is not hiding, He is just not "waving his arms and say Looking at me, look what I can do!".

IMO, God is acting like a being of immense power and knowledge that KNOWS the history of humanity and its propensity for destruction.

PaulSacramento wrote: We are not talking about you or me and I certainly do NOT profee to know the mind of God.
That you don't see the validity of the argument is not my problem.
That you don't see the issues with a uber-advanced being making Himself know to a lower species and all the issues that may come from that, is again not my concern.
God is not hiding, He is just not "waving his arms and say Looking at me, look what I can do!".

IMO, God is acting like a being of immense power and knowledge that KNOWS the history of humanity and its propensity for destruction.

Well, I think it should be your concern, but hey, I'm not God.

PaulSacramento wrote:He is just not "waving his arms and say Looking at me, look what I can do!".

IMO, this is justification that points 3 through 6 are incorrect. IMO, there is no God and this is a poor justification for faith.

Lunalle wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Lunalle wrote:Hey Dan,

I'm tempted to just reject your question, First of all, because you didn't define God. There are hundreds of thousands of gods, and thousands of variants of God. That makes it nearly impossible to properly answer the question, but I'll try.

Which God is irrelevant to the question, I don't need to define it because it can be whatever you want or imagine God to be.

My assumption of the properties of God, which form the basis of my answer:
1) God is all knowing.
2) God is all powerful.
3) God cares what I think.
4) God supplies me with knowledge.
5) God wants me to believe he exists.
6) God wants me to live my life in accordance to the knowledge he supplies to me.

Sounds like a good definition to me.

Ok, cool. At least we agree on this part.

No we don't agree I only said it was good, here is the Christian definition of God's attributes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributes ... ristianity

Yikes, I'm not a neuro-scientist, but I'll try. We don't have a solid understanding of the brain, so take this with a grain of salt. What we have observed, is that the brain is an extremely complex system utilizing chemical and electrical energy. On the basis of these observations, changing the chemicals and "electrical pathways" would be far more efficient than language.

Ok I see now, your saying that God would implant that knowledge in our brain and force it upon us.

I brought it up, because in my experience, this question leads to a debate on free will. I'd rather not have that debate, or at least have it in a separate thread.

I don't really want to debate free will either, but we can dance around the subject.

I assume we're talking about my belief that God does not exist as a conscious entity? Well, brain manipulation (as explained above) would do it. Becoming a God would do it. God bringing perfection to the world would do it. On the premise of point 1 and 2, I don't think this is unreasonable.

I guess since the God that you expect to exist lacks the attribute of love then he could do all those things.

Just like the mafia man didn't come to trash your store, but to protect it?

You would need to elaborate what you mean here, saying Jesus is like the mafia makes no sense without an explanation.

That is not quite correct. I agree, knowledge is power, and I can only hope it is used for more good than bad, but it is just hope.

So can we agree that mankind has a propensity to do bad things? If we do agree, why would God give us knowledge that could lead us to disaster?

So far it seems that you think God would be some sort of malevolent dictator, raping someones mind against their will for their own "good", is this correct? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Lunalle wrote: Ok, cool. At least we agree on this part.

No we don't agree I only said it was good, here is the Christian definition of God's attributes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributes ... ristianity

Whoa, interesting read. I'd be lying if I said I liked that God

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Yikes, I'm not a neuro-scientist, but I'll try. We don't have a solid understanding of the brain, so take this with a grain of salt. What we have observed, is that the brain is an extremely complex system utilizing chemical and electrical energy. On the basis of these observations, changing the chemicals and "electrical pathways" would be far more efficient than language.

Ok I see now, your saying that God would implant that knowledge in our brain and force it upon us.

Yes, exactly the way anti-psychotic and anti-depressant medication "forces positive emotion on us".

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

I assume we're talking about my belief that God does not exist as a conscious entity? Well, brain manipulation (as explained above) would do it. Becoming a God would do it. God bringing perfection to the world would do it. On the premise of point 1 and 2, I don't think this is unreasonable.

I guess since the God that you expect to exist lacks the attribute of love then he could do all those things.

I agree with you, but I don't understand why you would bring up love? Would not the most loving thing God could do would be to make our world perfect?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Just like the mafia man didn't come to trash your store, but to protect it?

You would need to elaborate what you mean here, saying Jesus is like the mafia makes no sense without an explanation.

I'm not sure what needs explaining? The mafia have been known to charge for "protection services", that is to say they won't trash your store if you pay them. From my point of view, that is analogous to Jesus talking about judgment.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

That is not quite correct. I agree, knowledge is power, and I can only hope it is used for more good than bad, but it is just hope.

So can we agree that mankind has a propensity to do bad things? If we do agree, why would God give us knowledge that could lead us to disaster?

Overall, no, I do not agree to that. Following your line of reasoning, why do we seek knowledge that could lead to disaster? Are you proposing we all be ignorant, and go back to beating each other to death with sticks and stones?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So far it seems that you think God would be some sort of malevolent dictator, raping someones mind against their will for their own "good", is this correct? Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think you went too far. If it is for our good, then it is not malevolent, by definition. I told you what I expect from God, should he be real. 1) Supply me with infinite knowledge OR 2) Make me God OR 3) Bring perfection to this world. You can even say my God is loving, because all three of those things would be extremely edifying to me. Unfortunately, I think you are absolutely right in applying that to the Christian God.

A quick point: "Raping someone's mind against their will for their own 'good'" is an accepted medical practice for dealing with those who have moderate to extreme brain damage or deformities.

Lunalle wrote:Yes, exactly the way anti-psychotic and anti-depressant medication "forces positive emotion on us".

No we choose to take the medication, I take anti depressants because of my social anxiety but I choose to take them. One of my friends is schizophrenic and he chooses to take the medication because it helps him life a more normal life.

I agree with you, but I don't understand why you would bring up love? Would not the most loving thing God could do would be to make our world perfect?

He can make our world perfect but we chose to bring sin into the world, he loves us so he gives us that choice. Otherwise he would be forcing us and that my friend is not love.

I'm not sure what needs explaining? The mafia have been known to charge for "protection services", that is to say they won't trash your store if you pay them. From my point of view, that is analogous to Jesus talking about judgment.

You issue with judgement is a lack of understanding. The mafia analogy is incorrect because they want to extort something from you for no other reason than personal gain, God isn't doing that he is offering a free gift and a way out of our bad ways, he gains nothing from this transaction, in fact he lost, he was beaten, spat on and died for us, taking on our sin and beating death so that we can be made new. God doesn't choose to send us to hell (whatever hell may be, I think it is total annihilation) we choose to send ourselves there because our pride wont accept the free gift, these people don't want God. Could you imagine if God let in people against their will, the new creation would be full of people who don't want to be there and whop would perpetuate the evil from this world into the next. Doesn't sound like a loving God to me, a God that forces people to love him, a God that forces people to take his free gift, a God that would let evil men to continue to do evil in the new creation.

I think you went too far. If it is for our good, then it is not malevolent, by definition.

I put good in quotations because it is not really good just someones perception of good, this point is moot.

1) Supply me with infinite knowledge

We already discussed this, infinite knowledge with a humanity that has the potential to do evil is a dangerous thing and not in their best interests. I would hardly think it would improve our situation at all, it could make it even worse, history tells us that knowledge does not stop mankind's propensity for evil.

2) Make me God OR

It is illogical to have two all powerful beings, if there are two, which one is more powerful than the other! There can't be two omnipotent beings.

3) Bring perfection to this world.

It is possible but not without upsetting our choice to choose to do the wrong thing.

A quick point: "Raping someone's mind against their will for their own 'good'" is an accepted medical practice for dealing with those who have moderate to extreme brain damage or deformities.

I don't see how this relates to God.