Evidence for God from Science

Does a person have to be insane to willingly reject salvation?
Do insane people have free will?
Will God hold insane people responsible to what their insanity drives them to?
Or is it impossible for insanity to drive people to do anything they are not responsible for?
Can people actually reject salvation if they are not clear about the consequences of their actions?

ultimate777 wrote:Does a person have to be insane to willingly reject salvation?

Most perfectly sane people reject salvation.

ultimate777 wrote:Do insane people have free will?

''Free will'' is an ephemeral concept at best. A better term would be ''autonomous will'' and, I'm quite sure that the insane have autonomous will. RickD could better answer this, however.

ultimate777 wrote:Will God hold insane people responsible to what their insanity drives them to?

If they are saved by the blood of Christ, then their sins are forgiven.

ultimate777 wrote:Or is it impossible for insanity to drive people to do anything they are not responsible for?

Your question is confusing. You'll have to re-word it.

ultimate777 wrote:Can people actually reject salvation if they are not clear about the consequences of their actions?

I'm quite certain that the vast majority of people who reject salvation are ''not clear about the consequences of their actions.'' If they knew and believed, they would never reject God's gift.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

ultimate777 wrote:Does a person have to be insane to willingly reject salvation?

Most perfectly sane people reject salvation.

I disagree

ultimate777 wrote:Do insane people have free will?

''Free will'' is an ephemeral concept at best. A better term would be ''autonomous will'' and, I'm quite sure that the insane have autonomous will. RickD could better answer this, however.
Free will is good enough for me even if its not good enough for you..

ultimate777 wrote:Will God hold insane people responsible to what their insanity drives them to?

If they are saved by the blood of Christ, then their sins are forgiven.
I agree

ultimate777 wrote:Or is it impossible for insanity to drive people to do anything they are not responsible for?

Your question is confusing. You'll have to re-word it.
Are insane people responsible for everything they do?

ultimate777 wrote:Can people actually reject salvation if they are not clear about the consequences of their actions?

I'l quite certain that the vast majority of people who reject salvation are ''not clear about the consequences of their actions.'' If they knew and believed, they would never reject God's gift.

FL

If there is a just God you cannot reject salvation if you don't know what you are doing.

You know, "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
Why did Jesus say that?
What would the Father's forgiveness get those people?

ultimate777 wrote:If there is a just God you cannot reject salvation if you don't know what you are doing.

I understand your sentence to mean, If God is just, he will only allow you to reject salvation if you know what you are doing. Is this what you mean? If so, where in the Bible do you see this? While you're at it, how does this idea of yours square with ''free will''???

ultimate777 wrote: You know, "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
Why did Jesus say that?
What would the Father's forgiveness get those people?

Forgiveness is always available to any sinner. God will freely give His forgiveness when a sinner seeks God's mercy and repents of his sins. Did those who nailed Jesus to the cross seek God's forgiveness and repent of their actions? If they did, they received God's forgiveness as per Jesus' request. If they did not, they are in a very hot place...and it isn't Florida.

FL

ultimate777 wrote: If there is a just God you cannot reject salvation if you don't know what you are doing.

You know, "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
Why did Jesus say that?
What would the Father's forgiveness get those people?

I believe this is a fundamental issue of what constitutes salvation.

Did Jesus die for every sin? the bible says, yes. If so, then what sin is NOT forgiven? answer: none. Receiving Christ is trusting that YOUR sins were nailed to the cross and forgiven. It is trusting that what Christ said and did was true.
The real tragedy is that people die and go to Hell having their sins forgiven.
The issue of sin is "FINISHED." it is not as if God is in heaven scratching his chin wondering if He will or will not forgive someone's sin. He died for it for pete's sake. What a shame for someone to reject the forgiveness that God accomplished in Christ Jesus.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

ultimate777 wrote:If there is a just God you cannot reject salvation if you don't know what you are doing.

I understand your sentence to mean, If God is just, he will only allow you to reject salvation if you know what you are doing. Is this what you mean? If so, where in the Bible do you see this? While you're at it, how does this idea of yours square with ''free will''???

If you try to reject salvation you are insane, at least on that subject, so at least on that subject you have no free will, so you cannot reject salvation, sort of a Catch 22 that works in your favor.

ultimate777 wrote: You know, "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
Why did Jesus say that?
What would the Father's forgiveness get those people?

Forgiveness is always available to any sinner. God will freely give His forgiveness
when a sinner seeks God's mercy and repents of his sins. Did those who nailed Jesus to the cross seek God's forgiveness and repent of their actions? If they did, they received God's forgiveness as per Jesus' request. If they did not, they are in a very hot place...and it isn't Florida.

FL

IMHO you are mistaken. I don't think Jesus required or expected many of his persecuters to ever seek God's mercy and repent.
If he did he would have said something like "May they learn what they have done, repent and seek forgiveness, and then be forgiven."
So there were no "whens" about it.

jlay wrote:

ultimate777 wrote: If there is a just God you cannot reject salvation if you don't know what you are doing.

You know, "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
Why did Jesus say that?
What would the Father's forgiveness get those people?

I believe this is a fundamental issue of what constitutes salvation.

Did Jesus die for every sin? the bible says, yes. If so, then what sin is NOT forgiven? answer: none. Receiving Christ is trusting that YOUR sins were nailed to the cross and forgiven. It is trusting that what Christ said and did was true.
The real tragedy is that people die and go to Hell having their sins forgiven.
The issue of sin is "FINISHED." it is not as if God is in heaven scratching his chin wondering if He will or will not forgive someone's sin. He died for it for pete's sake. What a shame for someone to reject the forgiveness that God accomplished in Christ Jesus.

I have already stated my reasons in this thread why I do not believe people can reject salvation, mainly I think anyone who would is not mentally competent to do so.

This is your main point...

ultimate777 wrote:...Can people actually reject salvation if they are not clear about the consequences of their actions?

Answer is yes - they do so all the time.

They see and feel the affects of consequences everyday in their lives and on the lives of others and themselves. Let me ask you a few questions:

Have you ever attempted to slander anyone, lie about another, ever condemn another unjustly, ever ruined or hurt a relationship? Ever coveted something another had, looked at someone and lusted? Ever betrayed anyone? Ever stolen something? Have you ever mocked anyone, berated another by words or direct physical action? Schemed, manipulated, been vindictive, pulled a prank, embarrassed someone meanly?? Ever acted selfishly? If so - what were the results upon the victim and upon yourself, and how did you twist reason to justify these actions? Were the consequences real enough for you? If they were, did you seek salvation for yourself by your own hands, ideas, concepts, arguments, justifications, or from the Lord Jesus Christ?
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B. W. wrote: Have you ever attempted to slander anyone, lie about another, ever condemn another unjustly, ever ruined or hurt a relationship? Ever coveted something another had, looked at someone and lusted? Ever betrayed anyone? Ever stolen something? Have you ever mocked anyone, berated another by words or direct physical action? Schemed, manipulated, been vindictive, pulled a prank, embarrassed someone meanly?? Ever acted selfishly? If so - what were the results upon the victim and upon yourself, and how did you twist reason to justify these actions? Were the consequences real enough for you? If they were, did you seek salvation for yourself by your own hands, ideas, concepts, arguments, justifications, or from the Lord Jesus Christ?
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I want you to imagine an existence where every life and mind was the exact embodiment of everything it desired to become.
We could actually conclude, that each individual expression would have the full capacity to understand that every expression surrounding it provides them with an undeniable wealth of inspiration and/or reflection towards that embodiment.
Naturally, such an expression would desire that every life be fulfilled, and it wouldn't settle for a single expression of themselves that would hinder that.
I want you to imagine an expression of humanity that through such a realization, was capable of demonstrated extreme abundance where minds would no longer be focused upon possessions or quantity, but instead would gravitate towards extreme quality. This highly developed focus would employ artistry and technology and advance these fields of thoughts to meet any demand imaginable, it would also open up an infinite potential of focus capable of fulfilling any dream a mind could begin to imagine. Perhaps you can see that the combination of this has produced a perfect balance capable of supporting that embodiment.

All these acts that you have described are counterproductive to an individual fulfilling their own expression in the dualistic relation in promoting the realization of every expression of every mind, what few people understand is that we have ultimately victimized ourselves. Those who are on the receiving end of these acts are fully responsible for how it impacts them and how they independently direct their response to it.
Either party is in a position to identify the act as a symptom of our failure as an expression of humanity to develop and become this embodiment; to allow for their individual growth and a brilliance that could be obtained from the experience to fill their voice.

We have the option right now within this discussion to identify that all these acts exist because we have yet to realize an expression of humanity that is capable of evolving intellect beyond them.

Or do you suppose our entire purpose is merely to go to Jesus for salvation?

Revolutionary wrote:Or do you suppose our entire purpose is merely to go to Jesus for salvation?

Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. My only objection is your use of the word ''merely'', above. ''Merely'' doesn't work because it is very difficult for any of us to go to Jesus for salvation.

The rest of your post is a testimony of human pride.

FL

Revolutionary wrote:

B. W. wrote:Have you ever attempted to slander anyone, lie about another, ever condemn another unjustly, ever ruined or hurt a relationship? Ever coveted something another had, looked at someone and lusted? Ever betrayed anyone? Ever stolen something? Have you ever mocked anyone, berated another by words or direct physical action? Schemed, manipulated, been vindictive, pulled a prank, embarrassed someone meanly?? Ever acted selfishly? If so - what were the results upon the victim and upon yourself, and how did you twist reason to justify these actions? Were the consequences real enough for you? If they were, did you seek salvation for yourself by your own hands, ideas, concepts, arguments, justifications, or from the Lord Jesus Christ?

I want you to imagine an existence where every life and mind was the exact embodiment of everything it desired to become.
We could actually conclude, that each individual expression would have the full capacity to understand that every expression surrounding it provides them with an undeniable wealth of inspiration and/or reflection towards that embodiment.

Naturally, such an expression would desire that every life be fulfilled, and it wouldn't settle for a single expression of themselves that would hinder that.

I want you to imagine an expression of humanity that through such a realization, was capable of demonstrated extreme abundance where minds would no longer be focused upon possessions or quantity, but instead would gravitate towards extreme quality. This highly developed focus would employ artistry and technology and advance these fields of thoughts to meet any demand imaginable, it would also open up an infinite potential of focus capable of fulfilling any dream a mind could begin to imagine. Perhaps you can see that the combination of this has produced a perfect balance capable of supporting that embodiment.

All these acts that you have described are counterproductive to an individual fulfilling their own expression in the dualistic relation in promoting the realization of every expression of every mind, what few people understand is that we have ultimately victimized ourselves. Those who are on the receiving end of these acts are fully responsible for how it impacts them and how they independently direct their response to it.

Either party is in a position to identify the act as a symptom of our failure as an expression of humanity to develop and become this embodiment; to allow for their individual growth and a brilliance that could be obtained from the experience to fill their voice.

We have the option right now within this discussion to identify that all these acts exist because we have yet to realize an expression of humanity that is capable of evolving intellect beyond them.

Or do you suppose our entire purpose is merely to go to Jesus for salvation?

FL, points out something I mentioned answering you Rev...

FL wrote:Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. My only objection is your use of the word ''merely'', above. ''Merely'' doesn't work because it is very difficult for any of us to go to Jesus for salvation.

The rest of your post is a testimony of human pride.

FL

I would add, this answer illustrates my main point

B. W. wrote:...did you seek salvation for yourself by your own hands, ideas, concepts, arguments, justifications, or from the Lord Jesus Christ?

In order to achieve your quote:

Revolutionary wrote:where minds would no longer be focused upon possessions or quantity, but instead would gravitate towards extreme quality.

Would involve theft....

In order to achieve your quote:

Revolutionary wrote: This highly developed focus would employ artistry and technology and advance these fields of thoughts to meet any demand imaginable, it would also open up an infinite potential of focus capable of fulfilling any dream a mind could begin to imagine.

Whenever and where ever this was tried, whether it in the Puritan Colony in MA, Cuba, North Korea, China, USSR, the result were nothing you mentioned other than to place blame on another - put them on trial - crucify them as being the problem or the enemy - slander and falsely accuse another - pit classes of people against each other with a hate built upon greed and envy - refuse to talk - close down open air memorials, make life miserable as possible to achieve its goals - all done in order to hoodwink human pride from its own hubris because after all - we are doing so for the greatest good and most noblest of reasons!

In order to achieve your quote:

Revolutionary wrote:Perhaps you can see that the combination of this has produced a perfect balance capable of supporting that embodiment.

We have a vast testimony from human history that this cannot produce perfect balance due to human beings propensity to twist and warp good into bad with the remarkable ability to justify their acts, ideas, and thoughts in doing so. Did the French Revolution result in such balance? Your thesis mirrors its founding ideas... What was the result?

Jesus Christ came to save us from ourselves and implant within his true disciples the ability to walk in a new balance between God and man with personal responsibility to change personal wrongness first in what you would call a supernatural way. Our kingdom is not of this world. It is eternal. It deals with human hubris and calls us to bear it upon our own cross. He who carries a cross, knows he or she can't return. Can't return to hubris governing them. Can't return to bitterness, theft, adulteries, envy, greed, lust. Can't return to the ways of a world that seeks utopia through lies and theft and murder.

Each Christian is own their own journey. Some a little further along than others. There are people who have hijacked Christianity for geo-political goals and ends - they did not last.

The normal Christian is a person carrying a cross, often they drop it, but Christ helps them bear it back up because a person who carries a cross knows he or she will not be returning... We, believers in Christ, are being changed into a people of balance in the reality of some less so and others more so as each of us realize - we will not be returning. We are heaven bound and those that seek a utopia on earth built upon human hubris as you describe, well, heaven is not fitting for such folks - why because they would destroy it. Proof of this is the goal to make Christianity the enemy scapegoat of humanity achieving a Brotherhood/Fraternity/Liberty by class struggle (Voltaire - Marxs - Engels - Bentham - Mills - Alinsky - Cloward–Piven - Valerie and William Jarrett - etc and etc)

You can't escape eternal responsibility no matter how you how hard you disbelieve by a belief in human achievement through evolutionary political steps as the greatest good for the greatest many not yet born and for the few in the know now. He who would treat the womb as a tomb speaks volumes about their true motives and means. Brotherhood of Man/Fraternity/Liberty are just words used to justify vice and indolent dependency that robs the human spirit, murders the human soul, destroys the human body.

Jesus came to bring life - an abounding life found by carrying your own cross knowing you will not be returning...

...as you carry, you'll help many along the way out of the mire of unforgiveness, bitterness, envy, greed, abandonment, rejection, broken hearts, captivity to all manner of addictions, granting the oil of joy instead of the mourning, helping to rebuild lives into the character of Jesus Christ. You don't hear about these folks very often and they are many - they don't grab the headlines with failings and shortcomings as other do or as the hypocrites used as the ends to justify the means.

So the choice is before you - achieve Brotherhood of Man/Fraternity/Liberty through lies, theft, dividing people along class lines in expectation they'll arise and do murder for you, promise liberty with great swelling words that justify lifestyles that destroy the human body and rot the soul, all to promote a social justice that seeks absolute submission to vice and indolent dependency. The highest ideas of man, like a golden head statue is a mere pipe dream built upon ruthlessness, blame, character assassination, and all manner of vice. The ends do not justify the means. The graves of so many attest to this.

Or too just accept God on his terms of surrender by the means of Jesus Christ alone and what he accomplished to save you from yourself. That choice is your alone to make, not mine.

Revolutionary wrote:All these acts that you have described are counterproductive to an individual fulfilling their own expression in the dualistic relation in promoting the realization of every expression of every mind, what few people understand is that we have ultimately victimized ourselves. Those who are on the receiving end of these acts are fully responsible for how it impacts them and how they independently direct their response to it.

Either party is in a position to identify the act as a symptom of our failure as an expression of humanity to develop and become this embodiment; to allow for their individual growth and a brilliance that could be obtained from the experience to fill their voice.

We have the option right now within this discussion to identify that all these acts exist because we have yet to realize an expression of humanity that is capable of evolving intellect beyond them.

Our purpose is to go to Jesus for salvation and carry our cross - knowing we can't return...

In that, comes lasting change, restored hope, rebuilt lives, true freedom from self. Then you appear to snidely remark that this can be achieved without Jesus's intervention in the heart of men and women...

FL is correct

FL wrote:Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. My only objection is your use of the word ''merely'', above. ''Merely'' doesn't work because it is very difficult for any of us to go to Jesus for salvation.

The rest of your post is a testimony of human pride.

FL

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People do what they KNOW to be wrong all the time, even what they KNOW is not in their best interest, even things they KNOW will kill them.

Revolutionary wrote:I want you to imagine an expression of humanity that through such a realization, was capable of demonstrated extreme abundance where minds would no longer be focused upon possessions or quantity, but instead would gravitate towards extreme quality.

B. W. wrote: Would involve theft....

In order to achieve your quote:
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How exactly does a demonstration of extreme abundance involve theft?
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, If you exist in extreme abundance there is no want over another and there is no reason to steal.

The monetary assessment of worth which creates the highly imbalanced social stratification of class keeps us from realizing such an expression.

But I'd like for you to explain how theft is involved, and then I will elaborate further.

I think you'd have to be pretty nutty to believe salvation was definitely possible and reject it.

PerciFlage wrote:I think you'd have to be pretty nutty to believe salvation was definitely possible and reject it.

The point is that people that reject the offer of salvation do NOT believe they require salvation.