Former YEC: Why he abandoned YEC views
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:38 am
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
It doesn't, nor was it intended to. He can be totally wrong about the ECFs (he is) and still be right about his interpretation of Scripture (though he isn't). All I'm saying is that his historical argument just doesn't work. In fact, I happen to find it telling that he feels the need to give it a historical justification in the first place and the fact that he plays so fast and loose with the facts in the second. But that's another matter entirely . . .ryanbouma wrote:And it's certainly not the first time I've seen Ross criticized for pushing the facts to the limits. I'm not sure if your take on the ECFs discounts his views, they just don't align 100%.
No. I'm not a scientist, I haven't studied physics or geology or any other such things. I've seen some popular arguments I find interesting (e.g., the apparent fact of multiple instances of convergence in an evolutionary worldview or the chicken-and-egg problem in a variety of natural phenomenon (e.g., DNA-replication)). I think some problems commonly cited as disproving a young earth are, in reality, just problems for all models (e.g., the horizon problem). I tend to find the claim that humans have been around hundreds of thousands of years and just figured out how to star writing five thousand years ago. Even if you limit the discussion to modern humans, they supposedly came on the scene about 50,000 years ago. I still don't see why it would take them 45,000 years to figure it out, especially when we have cave art from 40,000 years ago. The same type of problem exists with the rise of agriculture (arguably, it is more severe).Anyways, that's not why I'm posting. I'm wondering how you're able to reconcile the Bible and science with respect to your YEC position?
I tend to think that the Bible allows a world that is closer to 50,000 years old, not that that would make scientists any happier, I suppose. I'm just speaking strictly from a textual perspective.Simple as that with all due respect. Maybe you've answered this question before somewhere else and it would be helpful if you pointed me there. I really enjoy your philosophical views, but as you're a YEC, I'm unsure if you just find the geological interpretations incorrect? I sure don't think evolution is true, but I sure do believe sandstone is more than 10,000 years old. Granted I have a geology background. Thanks.
I hold it as a fact that if the earth is that if evolution is true or merely if the universe is 14byo and the earth 3byo, then the Bible is wrong as written. We would either have to abandon the doctrine of biblical inerrancy, which in my mind entails abandoning the doctine of inspiration, or we have to abandon the notion that the Bible can be read in an objective manner and has an objective message. That is to say, our hermeneutical approach to Scripture would have to be come mythological rather than historical.ryanbouma wrote:Thanks for your sincere answer Jac. If you were convinced the universe was 14 bil years old, and the life had been around more than 3 bil years, would that pose a theological problem to you? I ask because I feel that evolution poses a theological problem to me, but an old earth does not. Although I don't have the theological, language, history, or philosophy background you have So it would be interesting to know if you find an issue there, as a believer in an innerant Bible (myself also).
Jac, do you believe the Universe is a creation of God?Jac3510 wrote:I hold it as a fact that if the earth is that if evolution is true or merely if the universe is 14byo and the earth 3byo, then the Bible is wrong as written. We would either have to abandon the doctrine of biblical inerrancy, which in my mind entails abandoning the doctine of inspiration, or we have to abandon the notion that the Bible can be read in an objective manner and has an objective message. That is to say, our hermeneutical approach to Scripture would have to be come mythological rather than historical.ryanbouma wrote:Thanks for your sincere answer Jac. If you were convinced the universe was 14 bil years old, and the life had been around more than 3 bil years, would that pose a theological problem to you? I ask because I feel that evolution poses a theological problem to me, but an old earth does not. Although I don't have the theological, language, history, or philosophy background you have So it would be interesting to know if you find an issue there, as a believer in an innerant Bible (myself also).
Jac, the great compromiser. Does Ken Ham know you sold him out?Jac wrote:
I tend to think that the Bible allows a world that is closer to 50,000 years old, not that that would make scientists any happier, I suppose. I'm just speaking strictly from a textual perspective.
Of course. Why would you ask that?PaulSacramento wrote:Jac, do you believe the Universe is a creation of God?
HAM IS A COMPROMISER HE ISNT REALLY SAVED IF HE WAS HE WOULDNT TRY TO USE SOCALLED SCIENCE TO PROVE THE EARTH IS YOUNG HE SHOULD JSUT TAKE IT ON FAITH AND STOP GIVING STUPID HERETICS LIKE ROSS A PLATFROM TO ARGUE FROM HE NEEDS TO JUST PREACH THE GOSPEL AND TELL PEOPLEL IKE IT IS IF YOU BELIEVE IN EVILUTION YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!1!1111!!1!1RickD wrote:Jac, the great compromiser. Does Ken Ham know you sold him out?
50,000 years? Jac you're creeping slowly into OEC territory!Jac3510 wrote:Of course. Why would you ask that?PaulSacramento wrote:Jac, do you believe the Universe is a creation of God?
HAM IS A COMPROMISER HE ISNT REALLY SAVED IF HE WAS HE WOULDNT TRY TO USE SOCALLED SCIENCE TO PROVE THE EARTH IS YOUNG HE SHOULD JSUT TAKE IT ON FAITH AND STOP GIVING STUPID HERETICS LIKE ROSS A PLATFROM TO ARGUE FROM HE NEEDS TO JUST PREACH THE GOSPEL AND TELL PEOPLEL IKE IT IS IF YOU BELIEVE IN EVILUTION YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!1!1111!!1!1RickD wrote:Jac, the great compromiser. Does Ken Ham know you sold him out?
A genuine question - but are you totally closed to the possibility that there could be another interpretation to Genesis?Jac3510 wrote:I hold it as a fact that if the earth is that if evolution is true or merely if the universe is 14byo and the earth 3byo, then the Bible is wrong as written. We would either have to abandon the doctrine of biblical inerrancy, which in my mind entails abandoning the doctine of inspiration, or we have to abandon the notion that the Bible can be read in an objective manner and has an objective message. That is to say, our hermeneutical approach to Scripture would have to be come mythological rather than historical.ryanbouma wrote:Thanks for your sincere answer Jac. If you were convinced the universe was 14 bil years old, and the life had been around more than 3 bil years, would that pose a theological problem to you? I ask because I feel that evolution poses a theological problem to me, but an old earth does not. Although I don't have the theological, language, history, or philosophy background you have So it would be interesting to know if you find an issue there, as a believer in an innerant Bible (myself also).
Jac, you do know while G&S is Day-Age that it just isn't acceptable to bag YECs here?Jac3510 wrote:HAM IS A COMPROMISER HE ISNT REALLY SAVED IF HE WAS HE WOULDNT TRY TO USE SOCALLED SCIENCE TO PROVE THE EARTH IS YOUNG HE SHOULD JSUT TAKE IT ON FAITH AND STOP GIVING STUPID HERETICS LIKE ROSS A PLATFROM TO ARGUE FROM HE NEEDS TO JUST PREACH THE GOSPEL AND TELL PEOPLEL IKE IT IS IF YOU BELIEVE IN EVILUTION YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!1!1111!!1!1
URALLHAIRITICKSKurieuo wrote:Jac, you do know while G&S is Day-Age that it just isn't acceptable to bag YECs here?Jac3510 wrote:HAM IS A COMPROMISER HE ISNT REALLY SAVED IF HE WAS HE WOULDNT TRY TO USE SOCALLED SCIENCE TO PROVE THE EARTH IS YOUNG HE SHOULD JSUT TAKE IT ON FAITH AND STOP GIVING STUPID HERETICS LIKE ROSS A PLATFROM TO ARGUE FROM HE NEEDS TO JUST PREACH THE GOSPEL AND TELL PEOPLEL IKE IT IS IF YOU BELIEVE IN EVILUTION YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!1!1111!!1!1
Mods come on do something. Is it really acceptable to let people bag YECs while clamping down on anyone bagging Ross and the likes? Hehe...
Sorry, couldn't resist. I know you really felt more personal attacks on YEC than Ham, but you did defend Ham quite strongly in the past.