Evidence for God from Science

When people decide to leave their faith?They are a christian there whole life but then decide to leave it even tho they want to stick with it. They want to know but don't feel like it makes enough sense to them?or Evidence so they decide to leave it. Why is that? I'm trying to start somewhere with this but really not sure how.

Well, personally.....

My story is tha I was raised a Roman Catholic. Went to said denominational schools (Primary and High Schools) and basically....nothing the Church was saying seemed either worth while...Or reasonable.

The whole "Infallibility of the Pope"...Various Church rules and doctrines. Then...there was/is the fact of the many other denominations of Christianity and beyond that the myriad other faiths.

I just couldn't believe any of it...and after a long while and am now a happy Agnostic/Atheist.



Hope that helps.

Very much cheers to you and yours.

How could you be happy? What happens when you die?

WannaLearn wrote:When people decide to leave their faith?They are a christian there whole life but then decide to leave it even tho they want to. They want to know but don't feel like it makes enough sense to them?or Evidence so they decide to leave it. Why is that? I'm trying to start somewhere with this but really not sure how.

There are varied answers to this. Often, those that leave, only were in association and think thought were Christians through affiliations. When discussing this issue with them, you are struck that they only had a mental assent - or heady knowledge about Christian things but no personal relationship. Such folks, in my opinion were never saved to begin with. Living in a garage doesn't make you car. Such folks as this are more strongly opinionated and bitter than the others mentioned below...

There are others, who are, and experience Christ, yet, the influences of life and the world and false ideas held about God and even maybe life traumas discourage them and they fall away. However, this is temporary as the Lord will not let his own out of his grasp. There are reports from some that indicate that they may have received prayer - were not healed - or prayed and the answer was no - and this hurt them - so they left. Others go through school - college and learn that the earth maybe older than they were taught in Sunday school and the worldly system pounces upon them and sways them with mush. The reason they stumble is so that the Lord will bring them back after getting rid of the mush of false ideas and concepts about Himself they harbor for various reason. Our salvation is secure because He guarantees it as this principle from the bible reveals: "For the LORD will not abandon His people on account of His great name, because the LORD has been pleased to make you a people for Himself." 1 Samuel 12:22 NASB note also Luke 15:4, 5, 6, 7 as well too.

Both can leave because of bad doctrines and false teachers too. There are many reasons. Best to help them by being God's instrument to plant seeds, plow, or bring them back home during their life journey. This is part of discipleship. Much of the church world plays church rather than be church and yet - how can they be church if they don't know how? Maybe that is part of your calling WannaLearn? Who knows - maybe it is all of ours in some unknown degree.

The next group are simply false brethren and deceivers - not much you can do other than what the bible mentions for such... Be on the guard for them.

Some are people who are prophet and apostle wanna bee's who were wounded in life and are driven by inner hurts that drive them to seek significance in leadership positions. They often end up feeling slighted by leadership not accepting their claims, as well, resist the chastening of the Lord and refuse his healing touch. They leave bitter and angry and full of pride. This pride continues in their anti-Christian actives - they can be of either group I mentioned above.

Well that's my opinion on the matter and I am sure others will add theirs too...

Be at peace - brother!

John 10:27-30 is true - Jesus promised...
-
-
-

WannaLearn wrote:How could you be happy? What happens when you die?

Hi.

um, was this question directed towards myself?

Well, if so, my reply is thus,

'How could you be happy?' Quite well and 'happily'. Thanks for asking.

'What happens when you die?' Well...my view is it will be the same as passing out or going to sleep/losing consciousness....just, y'know, permanently.

Of course, most on this board thence say/think/assume that there will be much happening after the 'passing on' phase of the dying but.... *Shrug*

Very much cheers to you and yours.

Thadeyus wrote:

WannaLearn wrote:How could you be happy? What happens when you die?

Hi.

um, was this question directed towards myself?

Well, if so, my reply is thus,

'How could you be happy?' Quite well and 'happily'. Thanks for asking.

'What happens when you die?' Well...my view is it will be the same as passing out or going to sleep/losing consciousness....just, y'know, permanently.

Of course, most on this board thence say/think/assume that there will be much happening after the 'passing on' phase of the dying but.... *Shrug*


Very much cheers to you and yours.

Thanks but doesn't that seem kind of sad? and that we are just here by mistake or accident for us to have no purpose. And what if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesnt that worry you just a bit?

WannaLearn wrote:Thanks but doesn't that seem kind of sad? and that we are just here by mistake or accident for us to have no purpose. And what if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesn't that worry you just a bit?

"Thanks, but doesn't that seem kind of sad?" Um..sorry does what seem kind of sad?

"...We are just here by mistake..." Hmmm...well...normally folks kind of plan when they have kids. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.

"... Or accident for us..." Again, see above.

"... To have no purpose." Now, here's the nub. I have a very happy, fun life/existence. Friends and family. Places to go, things to do and see. What's not to find things about living?

"...What if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesn't that worry you just a bit?" No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Of course, I could also be wrong about Buddha...Krishna...Zeus, Odin, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster etc....So, really, it will also depend on what/who I might end up before with the assumption of 'What if...?"

Very much cheers to you and yours.

IMO and based on my experience, people tend to leave or lose their faith because they find that it doesn't have the answers to their questions or something that THEY thought was "right" is shown to be "not right".
In short people tend to leave the faith THEY create.
They tend to leave the faith because of what they perceive as the failings of human doctrine and I think that is important. Human doctrine is human interpretation and IF it is shown to be wrong that has little to do with faith and all to do with humans being imperfect.

WannaLearn wrote:When people decide to leave their faith?They are a christian there whole life but then decide to leave it even tho they want to stick with it. They want to know but don't feel like it makes enough sense to them?or Evidence so they decide to leave it. Why is that? I'm trying to start somewhere with this but really not sure how.

My wife was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school most of primary and state somewhat in high school.

While raised Catholic she found the beliefs stupid and didn't ever really hold to them. Her Aunt who raised her alongside her Mum was a nun, but also read books and seemed to dabble a little in American Indian spirituality and Judaism. So to her, Christianity and religion in general was just a meaningless enterprise.

Yet, she would have technically been classified a Christian by the standards of many, a Catholic Christian. And she walked away from the faith of her upbringing.

Then she met me. We had many exchanges. She found my beliefs amusing. Stubbornly debated me. Over time, she changed as she gained more and more information. She saw my beliefs did have meaning, were stable and supported. Very different from the Christianity she had come to know while growing up.

So, there are many reasons. In my wife's case, she was turned off probably due to a lack of understanding and poor Christian role-models who practiced more of a white-washed Christianity.

"...What if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesn't that worry you just a bit?" No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Whats not to forgive? how about Denying the god of the Universe. God is all forgiving but he is also just, And will give punishment.

Of course, I could also be wrong about Buddha...Krishna...Zeus, Odin, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster etc....So, really, it will also depend on what/who I might end up before with the assumption of 'What if...?"

What reasons should you even think about believing in those silly answers, oh and you forgot Santa clause . They didn't send a book with predicted prophecies giving us any reasons for us to believe in them, giving us a way that we should live and base are lives off of and some understanding of why we are here.

"... To have no purpose." Now, here's the nub. I have a very happy, fun life/existence. Friends and family. Places to go, things to do and see. What's not to find things about living?

"...What if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesn't that worry you just a bit?" No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Of course, I could also be wrong about Buddha...Krishna...Zeus, Odin, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster etc....So, really, it will also depend on what/who I might end up before with the assumption of 'What if...?"

Wow Thadeyus, I have many questions for a guy like you. Mostly because I come from a similar position, but the more I learn, I've taken a hard lean towards Christianity. But first I want to answer your question…sorry, but I’ll have to do so with a bunch of questions!

"No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?
Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?
Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?
I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

Thadeyus wrote:

WannaLearn wrote:Thanks but doesn't that seem kind of sad? and that we are just here by mistake or accident for us to have no purpose. And what if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesn't that worry you just a bit?

"Thanks, but doesn't that seem kind of sad?" Um..sorry does what seem kind of sad?

"...We are just here by mistake..." Hmmm...well...normally folks kind of plan when they have kids. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.

"... Or accident for us..." Again, see above.

"... To have no purpose." Now, here's the nub. I have a very happy, fun life/existence. Friends and family. Places to go, things to do and see. What's not to find things about living?

"...What if your wrong and you will have to burn in hell for all eternity, doesn't that worry you just a bit?"

No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Of course, I could also be wrong about Buddha...Krishna...Zeus, Odin, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster etc....So, really, it will also depend on what/who I might end up before with the assumption of 'What if...?"

Very much cheers to you and yours.

Thadeyus wrote:

WannaLearn wrote:How could you be happy? What happens when you die?

Hi.

um, was this question directed towards myself?

Well, if so, my reply is thus,

'How could you be happy?' Quite well and 'happily'. Thanks for asking.

'What happens when you die?' Well...my view is it will be the same as passing out or going to sleep/losing consciousness....just, y'know, permanently.

Of course, most on this board thence say/think/assume that there will be much happening after the 'passing on' phase of the dying but.... *Shrug*

Very much cheers to you and yours.

Oh the glories of nihilism! So cavalier – so proud! Thad – you captured that feeling very well and I commend you for your honesty.

But are you really that honest? Never told a lie – never took anything not yours? Never said you were sick to avoid something?

Are you really that honest with own yourself?

Your belief in nihilism and the nothingness – what does it justify, not just for you alone, but to the whole world?

I used to think such mindsets would usher in a new wave of peace and blissful harmony but after looking around at the world as it really is, full of folks who claim such honesty – I saw that idea is impossible. One person’s happiness is derived by taking from one by any means possible always destroyed the nice nihilistic folks who believed in illusions about the world and self.

The evidence of history proves this true and the state of current affairs as well too. No one is 100% honest other than God. Why would God desire to have dishonest folks, who lived life in denial of his existence, who seek to exploit God’s sense of fairness/forgiveness to get their own way, to live as his neighbors in heaven?

What’s to stop them from continuing their same dishonestly and smugness from ruining heaven as it did paradise?

God is fair and his forgiveness is toward all who surrender their own will to him through the work He did for us upon the cross of Christ Jesus. It is free and since it is free, one can accept his terms or reject them freely. In that way, God can freely see who is really honest about themselves from those that seek to exploit His goodness for their gain. In what part of this equation do you fit?
-
-
-

Thadeyus wrote:Well, personally.....

My story is tha I was raised a Roman Catholic. Went to said denominational schools (Primary and High Schools) and basically....nothing the Church was saying seemed either worth while...Or reasonable.

The whole "Infallibility of the Pope"...Various Church rules and doctrines. Then...there was/is the fact of the many other denominations of Christianity and beyond that the myriad other faiths.

I just couldn't believe any of it...and after a long while and am now a happy Agnostic/Atheist.



Hope that helps.

Very much cheers to you and yours.

What about keeping reading the Bible, listening to God's word, to God himself and not some schools?

WannaLearn wrote:"Thanks, but doesn't that seem kind of sad?"

WL, You've made a couple of mistakes here. In your first question to Thad, you made the assumption that one cannot be happy if they don't believe. But, there is no biblical basis for this. Is God's ultimate end to make us happy? No. Next, when you talk about purpose, what does that really mean to an atheist? You will find that they have no problem smuggling in theistic worldviews whenever it suits them.

Thadeyus wrote:
Hmmm...well...normally folks kind of plan when they have kids. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.

"... Or accident for us..." Again, see above. ;

Thad, you at least have to willingly to engage in honest discussion. Do you really think that WL's reason for this question was whether or not pregnancy was planned? What he is saying here is that if there is no intrinsic value to human life, or reason for our existance, then where can a person find meaning in life? "Meaning," would not mean...., anything. It would be an illusion or a delusion.

"... To have no purpose." Now, here's the nub. I have a very happy, fun life/existence. Friends and family. Places to go, things to do and see. What's not to find things about living?

Thad, what does any of that have to do with "purpose?" You are just referrencing subjective experience. What about the person who is born into abject poverty, or lives in slavery. You are assuming that your pleasure is the basis of purpose. I don't think I need to warn you of how dangerous things can get when pleasure becomes the measuring stick for purpose. Under that standard we can say that Hitler's ambitions were full of purpose.

No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Here is the problem with this line of thinking. You are participating in a forum that actually offers you answers to those questions. This is a ridiculous answer. Just why are you here? To remain ignorant of the claims of Christianity? Please. So, how are you going to claim ignorance? Surely you are smart enough to realize that 'purpose' actually has some intrinsic meaning beyond your own self-awareness. Or maybe not. Perhaps you are so shallow that you actually think that purpose is just some arbirtrary term that is subjective to your individual experience.

From one Christian perspective, Hell is not about forgiveness. Afterall, the NT teaches that Christ has already died for your sins, and those of the world. What is complicated, theologically, about that? So, if that is the case then your sins are forgiven. Heaven and Hell then becomes an issue of what you are going to do with that information. Receive it (trust it), or reject it. The Bible teaches that Christ died for your sins. (1st Cor. 15:3,4) What you are saying is that you willingly, consciously refuse to trust this for yourself. Despite the fact that it has been shared with you, you reject it, and then want to convince the reader here that you will simply claim ignorance as a defense. Of course, your particpation in this forum is a fuse that you lit to blow up your own argument. On top of that, you expect God to simply betray Himself and His promises and yield to your faulty reasoning. Brilliant.

If that is what you want to gamble eternity on, then you are acting foolishly.

Lots of posts to reply to. So here goes.

WannaLearn wrote: What reasons should you even think about believing in those silly answers, oh and you forgot Santa clause . They didn't send a book with predicted prophecies giving us any reasons for us to believe in them, giving us a way that we should live and base are lives off of and some understanding of why we are here.

Well...you kind of answered the point I was making. I find none of it plausible. From Zoroastria to Zeus to the Spaghetti monster to Santa (Yes, I know the coming fesstive seacon will see with with coal stuffed stockings. )

cnk12 wrote:Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?
Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?
Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?
I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

To answer all your points simply and succinctly, yes...Yes I have.