Evidence for God from Science

long before the strangfire conference I have been worried about the whole tongue's issue as I just cannot see a good mandate for it in scripture. when I told my close friends I had decided to stop talking in tongues I got an interesting range of responses. from pity to shunning. so I made a video explaining my biblical standpoint in the hope that someone would show me I was wrong - if indeed I was wrong.
http://youtu.be/eukKzfW0jrE

then i made a follow up responding to people's questions and comments here:
http://youtu.be/HF2LwTVOZsI

after this process I am even more convinced that tongues aren't for today. no one online or in person has been able to sit with a bible and give me a good hermeneutical exposition to justify this practice which I have observed in other world religions and which I believe is a potentially dangerous practice. I would challenge anyone here to give me good counter arguments (no tiny out of context proof texts either please).

God bless
J

p.s: I also made a video about the dangers of Christian fellowship. essential though it is - it is not without its dangers and all must approach with caution: http://youtu.be/i2VY3843HUI

Two hour-long videos are a bit much to watch, but I watched a little of the second video. It seems you have got it correct from what I saw. The few churches I have been to that practiced tongues didn't have a clue what they were doing. They treated tongues as a sideshow. As you mention early in the video, tongues alone are proof of nothing. Especially unknown tongues. When a church is in total confusion because so many are speaking and nobody is interpreting, then it is not of God. For that type of tongue (prophetic), only one or two speak, and someone must interpret. Most mentions of tongues in the New Testament though, are something else entirely. In Acts, the disciples spoke in other tongues, but they were tongues that were understood by the foreign Jews at the temple, so each heard the gospel in their own language.

If someone questions you, tell them that tongues, like most gifts can be faked or can come from demonic sources as well as from God. The fruits of the spirit cannot be faked for any length of time.

nuthajason wrote:long before the strangfire conference I have been worried about the whole tongue's issue as I just cannot see a good mandate for it in scripture. when I told my close friends I had decided to stop talking in tongues I got an interesting range of responses. from pity to shunning. so I made a video explaining my biblical standpoint in the hope that someone would show me I was wrong - if indeed I was wrong.
http://youtu.be/eukKzfW0jrE

then i made a follow up responding to people's questions and comments here:
http://youtu.be/HF2LwTVOZsI

after this process I am even more convinced that tongues aren't for today. no one online or in person has been able to sit with a bible and give me a good hermeneutical exposition to justify this practice which I have observed in other world religions and which I believe is a potentially dangerous practice. I would challenge anyone here to give me good counter arguments (no tiny out of context proof texts either please).

God bless
J

p.s: I also made a video about the dangers of Christian fellowship. essential though it is - it is not without its dangers and all must approach with caution: http://youtu.be/i2VY3843HUI

Couple of questions, first, are you here to only promote yourself and your videos?

Second, you have a link to suspicious document in your signature area - in this day and age - people cannot be too careful about getting zapped by a virus. Suggest you please remove that link.

Also note, if your only motive is to promote your videos please become aware that could be considered spamming or trolling under the Forum Rules and Guidelines.

Lastly, concerning the Holy Spirit gift of languages - because of the false does not negate the that the real exist. Never be wise in your own eyes at the expense of humility...
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I'm sorry BW. I didn't even think that it would be interpreted that way. I posted this to try to get people to show me if I am wrong in my conviction about tongues. I want to change either way if someone can make a stronger case for tongues than I can make against them. up until a few months ago I was a tongue talker but had never looked at the scripture for it myself that closely. I state in the video however that I do not believe that tongues or not speaking in tongues has any affect on justification (salvation).
I will remove the signature though -it is obsolete anyway.
j

There is something very bizarre going on in relations to the modern practice of tongues. Incoherent babbling when everyone can already communicate in the same language seems rather pointless. God can understand us perfectly, and so I can't see us needing use some unknown (to us) prayer language. I really wonder its source - WHO or what is causing this? Seeing what I've seen of churches around the world (on YT) practicing tongues is disturbing to me - so often like a spectacle and sideshow. And so often a FOCUS of those practicing it.

But the biggest reason I highly question that modern-day tongues are of the Lord is because, in my 56 years, I have been in many, many churches (of various denominations) - spirit-filled, evangelical, God-honoring/Jesus-seeking churches - in which I never saw ANYONE speaking in tongues. I grew up in a very large, very Godly Baptist church in which some of the most amazing Christians I've ever known attended. Not ONCE did I ever see tongues spoken by ANYONE there. I've attended various non-denominational community churches for over 20 years - NEVER saw tongues spoken. And so WHY, if they are a modern-day spiritual gift, would God have only gifted tongues to only a small minority of churches - as opposed to the vast number that do not exhibit such supposed gifts? And yet, I've experienced and seen ALL of the OTHER Sciptural gifts distributed and manifested in all the churches I've attended - but not tongues. How could that be? And many of the churches I've seen (online) practicing tongues appear chaotic at best - some appear demonic. Just because they are real does NOT mean they are now/today of the Lord. So, to me, this supposed gift will remain a HUGE red flag until proven otherwise. That said, tongues were clearly a gift in the early church - yet not manifested as we see they are today. And, perhaps, as we get nearer the End Times, God will use them again - but that's a different matter.

nuthajason wrote:I'm sorry BW. I didn't even think that it would be interpreted that way. I posted this to try to get people to show me if I am wrong in my conviction about tongues. I want to change either way if someone can make a stronger case for tongues than I can make against them. up until a few months ago I was a tongue talker but had never looked at the scripture for it myself that closely. I state in the video however that I do not believe that tongues or not speaking in tongues has any affect on justification (salvation).
I will remove the signature though -it is obsolete anyway.
j

Like you, I use to speak in tongues too.. But I changed after awhile after I really looked hard at the doctrine. It never really brought me close to G-d anyways.. If people feel compelled to do it however I guess that is their own choice.. It's when they say you need to do it because that is the only proof you have the Holy Spirit, that is when I object.

Philip wrote:There is something very bizarre going on in relations to the modern practice of tongues. Incoherent babbling when everyone can already communicate in the same language seems rather pointless. God can understand us perfectly, and so I can't see us needing use some unknown (to us) prayer language. I really wonder its source - WHO or what is causing this? Seeing what I've seen of churches around the world (on YT) practicing tongues is disturbing to me - so often like a spectacle and sideshow. And so often a FOCUS of those practicing it.

But the biggest reason I highly question that modern-day tongues are of the Lord is because, in my 56 years, I have been in many, many churches (of various denominations) - spirit-filled, evangelical, God-honoring/Jesus-seeking churches - in which I never saw ANYONE speaking in tongues. I grew up in a very large, very Godly Baptist church in which some of the most amazing Christians I've ever known attended. Not ONCE did I ever see tongues spoken by ANYONE there. I've attended various non-denominational community churches for over 20 years - NEVER saw tongues spoken. And so WHY, if they are a modern-day spiritual gift, would God have only gifted tongues to only a small minority of churches - as opposed to the vast number that do not exhibit such supposed gifts? And yet, I've experienced and seen ALL of the OTHER Sciptural gifts distributed and manifested in all the churches I've attended - but not tongues. How could that be? And many of the churches I've seen (online) practicing tongues appear chaotic at best - some appear demonic. Just because they are real does NOT mean they are now/today of the Lord. So, to me, this supposed gift will remain a HUGE red flag until proven otherwise. That said, tongues were clearly a gift in the early church - yet not manifested as we see they are today. And, perhaps, as we get nearer the End Times, God will use them again - but that's a different matter.

exactly - but the problem is now it seems to me that tongues are appearing in every church and I have to wonder that the devil will also attack the church more strongly in the end times too. his attack will be a false doctrine, lax biblical hermeneutics and pride of spiritual achievement or envy of others apparent ability and infilling - among many other attacks.

Gman wrote:

nuthajason wrote:I'm sorry BW. I didn't even think that it would be interpreted that way. I posted this to try to get people to show me if I am wrong in my conviction about tongues. I want to change either way if someone can make a stronger case for tongues than I can make against them. up until a few months ago I was a tongue talker but had never looked at the scripture for it myself that closely. I state in the video however that I do not believe that tongues or not speaking in tongues has any affect on justification (salvation).
I will remove the signature though -it is obsolete anyway.
j

Like you, I use to speak in tongues too.. But I changed after awhile after I really looked hard at the doctrine. It never really brought me close to G-d anyways.. If people feel compelled to do it however I guess that is their own choice.. It's when they say you need to do it because that is the only proof you have the Holy Spirit, that is when I object.

right on the nail! tongues is a badge of salvation to some. folks treat sanctification as if it were glorification. all true Christians are saved - justified. what the Holy Spirit does with us in our new life is the journey of sanctification. how long we travel - how deep we go, has nothing to do with our salvation but is a result of it. I believe we learn the will of the Spirit in the Word of God. the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible and would never go against it. when I read 1 Corinthians 12 - 14 I see a case against tongues. but though my and your conviction is not to talk in tongues, I do believe that those that do speak in tongues are not losing the salvation though they may well be stunting their sanctification.
God bless

I would think that if you could quit speaking in tongues like some here have acknowledged (while still a faithful follower of Christ) - that is, if you could turn it on or off like a water coming out of a faucet - then how could it possibly be a manifestation of God's Spirit within? And if you don't know what you are actually saying while speaking in them - how do you know their source? How do you know if someone supposedly interpreting is actually truly doing so? Are prophetic utterances so interpreted vague and applicable to just about anything - or are they very detailed and thus verified to be true?

Again, if today's speaking in tongues is truly of the Lord, then I would expect to see at least some people in ALL truly Christian/Jesus loving, seeking/ God-honoring churches to manifest them - just as the other spiritual gifts are distributed. But that's not what we see happening - not even close. Churches practicing tongues are a drop of water in a sea of churches that do not. And much of what we see happening runs the gamut, from alarming to potentially demonic. I think they are an easy door to deception. And I'm certainly not saying everyone who speaks in tongues is not a Christian.

Philip wrote:I would think that if you could quit speaking in tongues like some here have acknowledged (while still a faithful follower of Christ) - that is, if you could turn it on or off like a water coming out of a faucet - then how could it possibly be a manifestation of God's Spirit within? And if you don't know what you are actually saying while speaking in them - how do you know their source? How do you know if someone supposedly interpreting is actually truly doing so? Are prophetic utterances so interpreted vague and applicable to just about anything - or are they very detailed and thus verified to be true?

Again, if today's speaking in tongues is truly of the Lord, then I would expect to see at least some people in ALL truly Christian/Jesus loving, seeking/ God-honoring churches to manifest them - just as the other spiritual gifts are distributed. But that's not what we see happening - not even close. Churches practicing tongues are a drop of water in a sea of churches that do not. And much of what we see happening runs the gamut, from alarming to potentially demonic. I think they are an easy door to deception. And I'm certainly not saying everyone who speaks in tongues is not a Christian.

Some great points Philip. And yes possibly demonic too. We had a discussion about tongues some time ago here too if that helps...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =8&t=32915

Philip wrote:I would think that if you could quit speaking in tongues like some here have acknowledged (while still a faithful follower of Christ) - that is, if you could turn it on or off like a water coming out of a faucet - then how could it possibly be a manifestation of God's Spirit within? And if you don't know what you are actually saying while speaking in them - how do you know their source? How do you know if someone supposedly interpreting is actually truly doing so? Are prophetic utterances so interpreted vague and applicable to just about anything - or are they very detailed and thus verified to be true?

Again, if today's speaking in tongues is truly of the Lord, then I would expect to see at least some people in ALL truly Christian/Jesus loving, seeking/ God-honoring churches to manifest them - just as the other spiritual gifts are distributed. But that's not what we see happening - not even close. Churches practicing tongues are a drop of water in a sea of churches that do not. And much of what we see happening runs the gamut, from alarming to potentially demonic. I think they are an easy door to deception. And I'm certainly not saying everyone who speaks in tongues is not a Christian.

it is precisely these questions that make me doubt tongues. also that you can be taught to talk in tongues, buy books and dvds and even attend courses in tongues - because this gift from God needs man's help - right?

There was a show on our ABC recently, which critically examined faith healers, tongues and the like.

Re: tongues, Christians were hooked up to electrodes and brain activity was measure while Christians were praying in tongues.

The conclusion of the scientist was that the words were not being forced by the Christian. The activity in the brain that normally lights up when someone goes to speak/speaks was being somehow bypassed.

This was a secular documentary, and the man performing the experiment when questioned further did not know what to really make of it. Except the conclusion that the words were not being forced out by the Christian, like when people normally speak. So the Christian who speaks in tongues, and truly feels like it is not them, is kind of justified in their belief here. Sadly, due to these strong feelings, I feel such emotions are also taken advantage of by faith healers and Pentecostal evangelists.

The question is whether this is indeed God, the Holy Spirit, or some other phenomenon. Sadly, I may try to see if I can find that documentary online some time.

Kurieuo wrote:There was a show on our ABC recently, which critically examined faith healers, tongues and the like.

Re: tongues, Christians were hooked up to electrodes and brain activity was measure while Christians were praying in tongues.

The conclusion of the scientist was that the words were not being forced by the Christian. The activity in the brain that normally lights up when someone goes to speak/speaks was being somehow bypassed.

This was a secular documentary, and the man performing the experiment when questioned further did not know what to really make of it. Except the conclusion that the words were not being forced out by the Christian, like when people normally speak. So the Christian who speaks in tongues, and truly feels like it is not them, is kind of justified in their belief here. Sadly, due to these strong feelings, I feel such emotions are also taken advantage of by faith healers and Pentecostal evangelists.

The question is whether this is indeed God, the Holy Spirit, or some other phenomenon. Sadly, I may try to see if I can find that documentary online some time.

Thank you K for mentioning this. I was going to but glad you beat me to it...

I like what PeteSinCA mentioned on another thread on this very topic and expound a bit more afterwards so crucial points folks need to consider...

PeteSinCA wrote:Sometimes I wonder if the Holy Spirit would be unable to work in many/most modern churches, for lack of room! In the kind of “church service” Paul described, any and every believer might on any day be a “worship leader”, a teacher, prophesying, praying for some need, with the Holy Spirit leading and the leaders of the congregation overseeing to ensure things didn't get out of order and teachings didn't contradict Scripture. I wonder whether a believer raised with modern leader-audience “church services” would even recognize the leadership of the Holy Spirit, orderliness, and ministry happening in the believers' assemblies Paul knew.

Please read Joel 2:28, 29, 30, 31 32 and Acts 2:17-21, 33, 39 and then note that these verses site a very basic principle about God's character: Rom 11:29, Num 23:19, Mal 3:6 and add to this what these verses also reveal 1 Samuel 15:29, Heb 6:18.

Now, for those you determined to discount any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, unknown tongues in this thread particularly, when did God change his mind?

If Heb 13:8 to be worth anything at all - when did God change his mind and ended the gifts and began a new modern smug church so adult like that it has no need for the Lord's divine illumination as Pete mentioned above?

No, God has not changed, we have. So many of us have experienced the 1 Co 13:1 kind of speaking in tongues that we mock and scoff and declare – "well God changed his mind and reneged on that promise - but never mind what Heb 13:8 or 1 Samuel 15:29, Heb 6:18, Rom 11:29, Num 23:19, or Mal 3:6, just move on and pay no attention, nothing to see or hear here - back to your pews - please..."

So let me illustrate a point through a friendly jest…

Congrats – guess that since there are no longer tongues (the Gifts being done away with) proves that God does renege on his gifts, callings, and promises. Congrats, for pointing this out! This would also apply to John 3:16 - God may renege on that promise as well! Congrats guess this has proven beyond all reasonable doubt, God can’t keep a promise and is so unable to keep his word – well done! Bravo!

My apologies for the jesting but it does bring forth a valid point. Just because there are abuses does not mean that the real cannot exist. Paul points this out in 1 Co 13:1 and 1 Co 13:2, and 1 Co 13:3 and goes on to show how the gifts are used correctly by love’s governance. Yes, God may withhold things, chastise us, but he keeps his word, gifts, and callings.

Yes, folks have been hurt by abusing all of the gifts of the Spirit, like a bunch of kids playing; many have been hurt in the church sandbox. Some, like the Corinthian Church, have made dumb idols out of the gifts, so God withholds and chastises.

However anyone feels about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, these are here today, and do the purposes God intends despite what folks say about their modern era non-existences. 1 Co 12 reminds us these gifts are real and are used as God wills, not us. Maybe, instead of being smug and settled into church service order not described in the NT writings, maybe we need to return to the Lord’s ways and let him be the head of the church for a change of pace.

This debate about tongues reminds of the body shouting to the head, " you can’t move me, you up there, it is you who are to move to the whim of the body, we’ll do it our way."

Jesus is the head of the body of Christ on earth and it is he who governs us, not us shouting at him, "NO, Jesus, you can’t do this or that! With the gifts, no go – Lord you can’t do this here. After all, we’ll do things my way… its safer, quieter just being a pew sitting audience… look at all the phony baloney folks out there, Boy, I thank thee that I am not one of those Lordie."

Well, no matter your stance of unknown tongues, a prayer language, etc, the point of 1 Co 13:1 remains: If I speak with the tongues of men ----- but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Guess we like making noise, don’t we?

Notice how the gift of the tongues of men have not ceased, yet unknown kind supposedly have due to the fullness of the bible revelation being codified. With such superb logic as that would it not also suggest that the tongues of men have ceased too? Why we talking, then???

Yes, I have witnessed wacky and terrible things excited adult children do with the gifts in abundance, and even seen the counterfeits in action as well too. Nevertheless I have seen the real gifts from God at work in bucketfuls that far outweigh all the bad. I'll defend those inclined to speak in unknown tongues and seek for unity in the body of Christ. Yet, for those that misuse the gifts and tongues in such manner that produces envy, spiritual brow beating, only one manifestation of the Holy Spirit, I'll be as equally hard on you as the Lord directs me too.

Have a blessed and wonderful day!!!
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are used as God wills, not us

And therein is the problem! If tongues are used only as "GOD wills" - TODAY - then why are they only manifested in a minority of churches? And amongst that minority, why do we see so much chaotic wackiness? Many even appear demonic and out of control (though, certainly, not all of them). But for many churches practicing them, tongues are so often their focus and their services appear almost as a circus. Again, if these are gifts of God that He still distributes today, why has He deprived the vast majority of the churches from having/using them? Are we to think the vast majority that doesn't speak them are any less spiritual? Any less authentically Christian? Are any less on fire for the Lord? Not eager to experience God fully? Sure, maybe SOME aren't - even many - but there is something really bizarre if these gifts are missing from a huge majority of churches that are authentically zealous for the Lord. And IF, as according to B.W., they are "used as God wills, and not us," then why has HE necessarily limited them to such a tiny number of churches out of the sea of Christiandom? Also, if true, why would God have almost exclusively distributed such gifts along denominational lines? And countless numbers of Christian martyrs not speaking tongues have bled and died for their belief in spreading the Gospel of Christ. Think such people didn't thirst for every gift the Lord might give them? Why would God make widespread EVERY OTHER gift across all churches, yet not tongues?

Endorsing modern tongues (at least as we have been seeing over the past 50 years) by saying that "God doesn't change," is a bad argument. God gifts according to time and His purposes for each time. He always has. “All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as HE wills" (1 Corinthians 12:11). Did God give the gift of tongues to the saints in Old Testament times? No! God gave many directives in the past that do not apply to modern Christians - does that mean that He changed? Not at all! Notice how repeatedly the Lord spoke of the “coming” of the Spirit (who was already present) in His conversation with the disciples in the Upper Room (John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13). This indicates both that the Spirit was at work then, but that His work would take on a different character after Pentecost. But this surely doesn't mean that God changed. And it doesn't mean that God's purposes for tongues didn't change after the first century or that His purposes for them might very well come again - even differently, somehow.

B. W. wrote: Yes, folks have been hurt by abusing all of the gifts of the Spirit, like a bunch of kids playing; many have been hurt in the church sandbox. Some, like the Corinthian Church, have made dumb idols out of the gifts, so God withholds and chastises.

Ok.. Let's not get too emotional here.

The point here is the logic of it in a sense if it is not a language that people can't understand. The point I see from if is that it can be a supernatural event, it's just that it is in a tongue that a nation can understand, not gibberish. Where G-d brings together all nations instead of separating them as He did at the tower of Babel.