Evidence for God from Science

I am sharing this from the book unChristian written by Barna group. It's a message I wish to share.

“So, David, do you still think I am going to hell because I am gay?” “Well . . . I don’t know what I said before. I am sorry if I said you were going to hell because you are gay. Here is what I believe. It all comes down to what you do with Jesus. I believe he was the Son of God. Not everyone believes that, but I would give anything for you to see the reality of Jesus. His life gives my life meaning and purpose. He can do the same for you.” I paused to let that sink in and thought about leaving it at that, but I ventured gently into the heart of Mark’s question. “No one goes to heaven for what they do or don’t do. That’s the message of Jesus. Every human sins, and we all deserve hell for that. But Jesus freely offers everyone his grace. I know it’s not an easy part of Christian theology, but yes, I believe homosexual behavior is a sin, but it’s no different than any other sin, no different than if I sleep with someone other than my wife or even have a momentary sexual fantasy. God created sexuality, so it is good, but it can be expressed in wrong ways. Every one of us, gay or straight or whatever, expresses sexuality in broken ways.”
- - -
“David, here is what you need to know about my life,” Mark began. “I was incredibly lonely. I hated myself. I could not figure out what was wrong with me, and it was eating me alive. I almost dropped out of school. It was awful. I know guys who have committed suicide because of the deep conflicts that exist between who they are and what religion says is right and wrong.”

The church has inflicted horrible damage over this issue. Believers can say that, "all sin is the same," but they really don't practice what they preach. In doing so we have galvanized hatred towards the church. We have actually perpetuated the wreckless and brazen behavior we see practiced in the homosexual community. We have hung a mill stone around our own neck.

The church has inflicted horrible damage over this issue. Believers can say that, "all sin is the same," but they really don't practice what they preach. In doing so we have galvanized hatred towards the church. We have actually perpetuated the wreckless and brazen behavior we see practiced in the homosexual community. We have hung a mill stone around our own neck.

Exactly! And heaven forbid someone in the church is found to be struggling with one of the "big" sins - infidelity, porn addiction, something scandalous. Precisely when people need other Christians to come around them in prayer, support and forgiveness, they are often shunned instead. And because of this, so often people just bear and stay in the grips of a sin that needs confession and restoration - with God and fellow Christians. They stay silent and continue to suffer in silence due to what they perceive (and often, rightly so) that the reaction to confession and seeking help will be anything but how Christians are to Scripturally respond. Quite sad and tragic.

There are some Christians who do provide the help that homosexuals need. Here is a Christian site designed to help homosexuals and those who are concerned about them:

http://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

If you would like a firsthand account about what it is like to be both a Christian and a homosexual I suggest you read Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. You can read a description of it here:

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/1 ... d-waiting/

It seems that science is getting closer to stating that sexual preference is a genetic thing, something we are born with.
It is not a choice.
That said, we do choose HOW we live our lives regardless of the genetic predisposition we may be born with.
I do NOT agree that Christians should "shun" or turn away from homosexuals BUT it should be made clear that the homosexual lifestyle is NOT one that Christianity preaches as correct.
Just like lifestyles that are filled with greed and lust and hate and anger and so forth are also preached against.
In fact we should preach against those lifestyles as much as we preach against the HS one,but I notice that we don't and that is OUR FAILING.

We should always welcome ANYONE that is searching for Our Lord with open and loving arms, regardless of who they are and what they are doing.

We are all sinners, something that we tend to forget sometimes and we all need forgiveness and love.

PaulSacramento wrote:...Wrote stuff....

Which I agree with...If every one agrees that all Right handed people are 'genetically' damaged and should be forced to learn to write in the proper manner with their left hands.

Hmm...can't seem to find a good emote to accompany said post...

So...and [T.I.C] to the end of that.

Also, kind of sorry for just dropping a random seeming post in., but it's a reply that's possible within the time I have available.

Much cheers to all.

PaulSacramento wrote:It seems that science is getting closer to stating that sexual preference is a genetic thing, something we are born with.
It is not a choice.
That said, we do choose HOW we live our lives regardless of the genetic predisposition we may be born with.
I do NOT agree that Christians should "shun" or turn away from homosexuals BUT it should be made clear that the homosexual lifestyle is NOT one that Christianity preaches as correct.
Just like lifestyles that are filled with greed and lust and hate and anger and so forth are also preached against.
In fact we should preach against those lifestyles as much as we preach against the HS one,but I notice that we don't and that is OUR FAILING.

We should always welcome ANYONE that is searching for Our Lord with open and loving arms, regardless of who they are and what they are doing.

We are all sinners, something that we tend to forget sometimes and we all need forgiveness and love.

Yep. Many are born with a number of genetic issues. But, here is the thing. We know that they are genetic defects. If someone is born with autism, we aren't considered autismiphobic if we actually 'treat' their autism to help minimize the symptoms. Nor do we say, 'well, that's how they were born, we shouldn't make any effort to change them.' I don't think it's a good think for the gay community to have genetic 'proof.' Proof of what? A defect? Then you can scientifically say that homosexuality is a DEFECT. That doesn't seem to help their cause.

jlay wrote:Nor do we say, 'well, that's how they were born, we shouldn't make any effort to change them.' I don't think it's a good think for the gay community to have genetic 'proof.' Proof of what? A defect? Then you can scientifically say that homosexuality is a DEFECT. That doesn't seem to help their cause.

Except there are more than just 'Defects' within the genetic variances.

The Tibetans have genetic changes that allow them to cope with the high altitude (Many Chines settlers actually have to be taken down from the plateau to have their children).

Just as there are variances that actually allow for better than 20/20 vision etc.

Now, as to the definitions of said genetic variations... *shrug*

Much cheers to all.

IF one truly has a genetic predisposition to homosexuality, how can we judge that as being separate from the sin nature we are all born with? Heterosexuals that pursue sexual relations outside of wedlock because of their "natural drive," rampant promiscuity due to a "high sex drive," bi-sexual pursuits, pedophilia (yes, many pedophiles will insist they are naturally, sexually attracted to young children), homosexuality - each of these may seem absolutely natural and simply part of being human - which having a sin nature goes a long way towards explaining. A person's sin nature can attract and push them to all kinds of sinful pursuits. And all kinds of lusts - not just physical/sexual, but a wide variety of material lusts can also well up in us. But the question is, are we merely animals that cannot control our lusts, that we can't resist them (with God's help)? Just because there are things that seem natural for us to pursue doesn't make them okay - obviously. And at the end of the day, all such seemingly natural, Scripturally sinful pursuits are a choice that are acted on. And the more we give in to them, the more they have us in their grips. Which is why chemical addictions are so insidious - as for some, they begin to not only attract their brain's pleasure center, but they can physically make one's body literally scream for them.

And people think that just because something seems part of their natural human nature, and as soon as they realize that they can't, in their own power, change it - even if they wanted to - they commonly figure, "why shouldn't I just embrace my inner, natural drives- why deny who and what I am or the drives that are inherent in me?" Yet, they do have one thing right, they can't change a powerful sinful drive ONLY IN THEIR OWN POWER. Only the Lord can change them - and He does so by starting with their mind and honoring their desire to obey Him - as that is the first big step to overcoming any sin. But most don't want to change, don't want God's help. Frequently they simply convince themselves that either He doesn't exist OR that He only cares that they are a "good" person.

jlay wrote:I don't think it's a good think for the gay community to have genetic 'proof.' Proof of what? A defect? Then you can scientifically say that homosexuality is a DEFECT. That doesn't seem to help their cause.

There are laws forbidding discrimination on the grounds of disability. Gays would probably try to use those laws to support their demands if it was proven that homosexuality was a genetic defect.

theophilus wrote:

jlay wrote:I don't think it's a good think for the gay community to have genetic 'proof.' Proof of what? A defect? Then you can scientifically say that homosexuality is a DEFECT. That doesn't seem to help their cause.

There are laws forbidding discrimination on the grounds of disability. Gays would probably try to use those laws to support their demands if it was proven that homosexuality was a genetic defect.

True, but in the end I don't think it helps their cause. What constitutes discrimination? Are people with Down's syndrome allowed to drive a car? Isn't that discriminatory? Yes. Is it bad? No.
Discrimination is NOT a bad word. The word itself is neutral. It is on what grounds one discriminates that is good or bad.
The NBA discriminates against short people.


The Tibetan thing is a genetic anamolly, not a defect. It is simple NS. People who were already possessed the genetic advantage thrived at the higher altitude. Those who lacked this gentetic trait did not. Within 3,000 years, that trait became exclusive. I read the articles, and they are abusing the term mutation, and playing fast and lose with the terminology. There is no evidence of anything mutating. You can't compare this to homosexuality. There is absolutely no advantage to homosexuality, since by its nature, it cannot pass the trait to offspring. Which is exactly why I think they will not find a genetic link. If that's the case, then homosexuality should be on the decline, since gay people can't reproduce, naturally at least.

jlay wrote:
The NBA discriminates against short people.

That is not true
muggsy bogues

jlay wrote: The Tibetan thing is a genetic anomaly, not a defect. It is simple NS. People who were already possessed the genetic advantage thrived at the higher altitude. Those who lacked this genetic trait did not. Within 3,000 years, that trait became exclusive. I read the articles, and they are abusing the term mutation, and playing fast and lose with the terminology. There is no evidence of anything mutating. You can't compare this to homosexuality. There is absolutely no advantage to homosexuality, since by its nature, it cannot pass the trait to offspring. Which is exactly why I think they will not find a genetic link. If that's the case, then homosexuality should be on the decline, since gay people can't reproduce, naturally at least.

'Anomaly'? Um...it would be interesting to read the articles you've read. Maybe a linky, please?

As for "People who were already possessed the genetic advantage thrived at the higher altitude. Those who lacked this genetic trait did not."
That...sounds like the way things should work in biology normally...Y'know genetic drift, adaption....That sort of thing....

Ah! Now you've mad a claim.

"There is absolutely no advantage to homosexuality..."

The trait (Me making a very broad, brush stroke of a statement here) of 'Batting for the same team' in and of itself may not pass on (Though, you'll notice there's actually nothing stopping a female of the same batting club working out a way to actually get pregnant.) the issue isn't on the single individual passing on their genes in this case. If the batting average gene allows for an improvement within the gene pool of the population in general, then a slight selection bias is introduced that is positive and so/hence should actually be now in the same place as the Tibetans.

"The group which were already possessed the genetic advantage thrived .... Those who lacked this genetic trait did not."

jlay wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:It seems that science is getting closer to stating that sexual preference is a genetic thing, something we are born with.
It is not a choice.
That said, we do choose HOW we live our lives regardless of the genetic predisposition we may be born with.
I do NOT agree that Christians should "shun" or turn away from homosexuals BUT it should be made clear that the homosexual lifestyle is NOT one that Christianity preaches as correct.
Just like lifestyles that are filled with greed and lust and hate and anger and so forth are also preached against.
In fact we should preach against those lifestyles as much as we preach against the HS one,but I notice that we don't and that is OUR FAILING.

We should always welcome ANYONE that is searching for Our Lord with open and loving arms, regardless of who they are and what they are doing.

We are all sinners, something that we tend to forget sometimes and we all need forgiveness and love.

Yep. Many are born with a number of genetic issues. But, here is the thing. We know that they are genetic defects. If someone is born with autism, we aren't considered autismiphobic if we actually 'treat' their autism to help minimize the symptoms. Nor do we say, 'well, that's how they were born, we shouldn't make any effort to change them.' I don't think it's a good think for the gay community to have genetic 'proof.' Proof of what? A defect? Then you can scientifically say that homosexuality is a DEFECT. That doesn't seem to help their cause.

It's not about helping their case.
The issue with homosexuality is the "passion" the comes from those the defend the right of adults to express their sexual inclinations.
If we remove the "passion" and "political correctness" of it then what we have left is the simple biological fact that IF homosexuality IS genetic (a person is born that way) then it cna be viewed as a "birth defect" because homosexuality is NOT in the best interest of the individual OR the group.

'Anomaly'? Um...it would be interesting to read the articles you've read. Maybe a linky, please?

I'm not using the term scientifically. If you really want to pursue the issue, I can show you how it is question begging.

As for "People who were already possessed the genetic advantage thrived at the higher altitude. Those who lacked this genetic trait did not."
That...sounds like the way things should work in biology normally...Y'know genetic drift, adaption....That sort of thing....

So, what's your objection? That we agree? Yes, that is the way things work in biology. The difference is that I am not question begging, and claiming that this observable change is Darwinism, which is exactly what those articles referening the Tibetans are claiming.

The trait (Me making a very broad, brush stroke of a statement here) of 'Batting for the same team' in and of itself may not pass on (Though, you'll notice there's actually nothing stopping a female of the same batting club working out a way to actually get pregnant.) the issue isn't on the single individual passing on their genes in this case. If the batting average gene allows for an improvement within the gene pool of the population in general, then a slight selection bias is introduced that is positive and so/hence should actually be now in the same place as the Tibetans.

First, we havent' established that it is a trait. We are speculating that it might be. Lesbians intentionally getting pregnant is a modern trend. And, there is no evidence to show that a gay person reproducing is more likely to have gay offspring. The point is that if homosexuality is genetic, then the reality is that genetics are actually working against them.

PaulSacramento wrote:It's not about helping their case.
The issue with homosexuality is the "passion" the comes from those the defend the right of adults to express their sexual inclinations.
If we remove the "passion" and "political correctness" of it then what we have left is the simple biological fact that IF homosexuality IS genetic (a person is born that way) then it cna be viewed as a "birth defect" because homosexuality is NOT in the best interest of the individual OR the group.

I agree. I just don't think the gay community would. They seem to think that genetic evidence will somehow verify their lifestyle.