Evidence for God from Science

I find it interesting that God's Omnipresence seems to be the less spoken and even most neglected omni in modern Christian theology.

What does omnipresent mean to you as a Christian?

Additionally, for those who endorse God's always being timeless, how does a timeless conception of God outside of His Creation do justice to any sense of God's omnipresence?

How I perceive God's relationship with His Creation to be, I really think takes seriously God's Omnipresence. Such that, I just do not see how other views can coherently embrace omnipresence.

In the last month or so it has been especially touching to me, to reflect upon my own Christian theology of how God is truly omnipresent. To me, God's omnipresence even underpins and explains how God's omnipotence is possible. Without it, God's omnipotence appears to be logical restricted since if God is not everywhere, than God does not have the power to control everything.

So the floor is now open to you as a Christian, as I'm deeply interested to what you think and discussing God's Omnipresence.

I also love verses about God's omnipresence. Some really good ones I looked up are Jeremiah 23:24, Psalm 139:7-10, Colossians 1:17, Job 11:7-9. I also appreciated your thoughts on omnipresence being in accordance with omnipotence. My definition of the idea would be that omnipresence entails that God is present in every realm of every dimension. He can operate in the spiritual realm and in the physical realm, and exists in every dimension. His omnipotence means He can achieve whatever He wishes in any said realm since He the creator of those realms. It really does give me a sense of awe the more I think about it, and it truly is the kind of Christian philosophy that strengthens ones faith in God. Great stuff man. God bless.

I don't think of God's omnipresence as God is everywhere. Since I'm a Thomist I believe not only that God IS existence but that he eternally sustains it. If it would make sense to say God ceased to exit, then everything else would cease to exist as well. That's how I see omnipresence.

Byblos wrote:I don't think of God's omnipresence as God is everywhere. Since I'm a Thomist I believe not only that God IS existence but that he eternally sustains it. If it would make sense to say God ceased to exit, then everything else would cease to exist as well. That's how I see omnipresence.

Thanks Byblos -- I don't really follow to your conclusion, but some comments on points you raised

1) I believe God IS existence (me too!)

2) I believe God eternally sustains it ( obviously, God's eternal existence necessitates that God exists in His own right. I'm not entirely clear about what you mean, but I'd question whether God needs to sustain His own existence. Logically, I see it as an impossibility that God could snuff Himself out of existence. I think you agree with this based on your next point, so what is it you mean by "sustains it"?)

3) If it were possible for God to cease to exist, then everything else would cease to exists as well. (agree, everything derives its existence from God, which is also sustained by God, specifically, Creation is sustained by the Holy Spirit)

4) Therefore, I don't think of God's omnipresence as God is everywhere. (you just lost me! How does it follow that if God is existence, and the Creation has existence, that God is not everywhere?)

Um...if god is omnipresent....how does the limitation of the propagation of the speed of light affect them/it?

Just a thought....

Thadeyus wrote:Um...if god is omnipresent....how does the limitation of the propagation of the speed of light affect them/it?

Just a thought....

Say what?

I get the idea of a 'God is every where' thing.

But every where is not connected to ever where else at the same time.

Events 'ripple' across reality...Which, so far as we know...Are limited by the maximum speed at which they propagate.

The speed of light.

Thadeyus wrote:I get the idea of a 'God is every where' thing.

But every where is not connected to ever where else at the same time.

Events 'ripple' across reality...Which, so far as we know...Are limited by the maximum speed at which they propagate.

The speed of light.

Unless you can clarify further the logical issue you see, please refer to an article. I'm seriously still not understanding you or the issue.

How is our temporal universe not running on the same temporality? Observation has no bearing. Just because we can see stars as the were many years ago via a telescope, doesn't mean they don't have a state of their existence in the present.

Thadeyus wrote:Um...if god is omnipresent....how does the limitation of the propagation of the speed of light affect them/it?

Just a thought....

Do you think God is limited by laws He created?

... And maybe he just knows how to 'hack' his creation. (Maybe he can create wormholes, etc )

1over137 wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Um...if god is omnipresent....how does the limitation of the propagation of the speed of light affect them/it?

Just a thought....

Do you think God is limited by laws He created?

... And maybe he just knows how to 'hack' his creation. (Maybe he can create wormholes, etc )

If a worm can create holes, then I'm sure God could too.

ManofGod wrote:I also love verses about God's omnipresence. Some really good ones I looked up are Jeremiah 23:24, Psalm 139:7-10, Colossians 1:17, Job 11:7-9. I also appreciated your thoughts on omnipresence being in accordance with omnipotence. My definition of the idea would be that omnipresence entails that God is present in every realm of every dimension. He can operate in the spiritual realm and in the physical realm, and exists in every dimension. His omnipotence means He can achieve whatever He wishes in any said realm since He the creator of those realms. It really does give me a sense of awe the more I think about it, and it truly is the kind of Christian philosophy that strengthens ones faith in God. Great stuff man. God bless.

Great verses.

In virtue of God's Omnipresence, I believe God saturates His Creation, existing in ALL of the smallest particles that make up the universe and all life forms. The Holy Spirit sustains every single particle and ensures all the laws that govern the universe run in a predictable and stable manner. Life has its very existence in God, as Byblos said. Really gives the role of the Holy Spirit significance -- truly an important role in sustaining things. And the power to sustain all those particles at once. Mind boggling.

Christians normally conceive of God somewhere out there. They even sing worship songs for God's presence (Holy Spirit) to come. Such fails to take seriously God's omnipresence. When one starts seeing God is in the palm of one's hand, it really inspires a close personal feeling that can make the hairs on your neck stand up. How close and personal, powerful and in control of absolutely everything God really is.

Kurieuo wrote:I believe God saturates His Creation, existing in ALL of the smallest particles that make up the universe and all life forms. The Holy Spirit sustains every single particle and ensures all the laws that govern the universe run in a predictable and stable manner. Life has its very existence in God, as Byblos said. Really gives the role of the Holy Spirit significance -- truly an important role in sustaining things. And the power to sustain all those particles at once. Mind boggling.

Ok, I always had following question on my mind:

Does he sustains every particle? Because, there are physical laws and via them things hold together, work together, etc. So, does God have to dictate each particle what to do?

God is not located anywhere. He is not a spatially defined, extended being. God is not "here" and also "there." If He were, I would ask which part of Him was is each place. And how could all of an extended being exist in multiple places? By nature, it could not, for that is logically self contradictory. But a non-extended being is not anywhere. It is known or experienced in the physical, extended world through its effects. But the effect is not the thing itself. So we say God is omnipresent to mean there is nowhere in which He is not effectual. He is fully present so to speak at each place and each point in time insofar as He Himself and not some part of Him is the cause of that thing's existence. So God's omnipresence is understood in light of His being the First Cause of absolutely everything, not in a temporal sense only but in a moment by moment sense of sustaining and bringing about each thing as it happens as well.

1over137 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I believe God saturates His Creation, existing in ALL of the smallest particles that make up the universe and all life forms. The Holy Spirit sustains every single particle and ensures all the laws that govern the universe run in a predictable and stable manner. Life has its very existence in God, as Byblos said. Really gives the role of the Holy Spirit significance -- truly an important role in sustaining things. And the power to sustain all those particles at once. Mind boggling.

Ok, I always had following question on my mind:

Does he sustains every particle? Because, there are physical laws and via them things hold together, work together, etc. So, does God have to dictate each particle what to do?

This is where I see a Materialistic-like view of the world falls apart.

It just doesn't go back far enough to say how the reality we experience exists, works and runs. Many just observe these physical laws, time, energy and matter, and accepts them as foundational. But what supports such a foundation? Why do they exist and run as they do? Should we just accept that everything just literally hangs and runs on thin air without questioning deeper questions of how and why?

Consider software. It is coded in a language which ultimately runs as bits. What is the software running on? A computer. Who created the laws that software works by? Human intelligence. What allows software to behave as it does? The computer which was created by us. What sustains and keeps everything running smoothly? The computer (and perhaps you or a helpdesk )

Now consider our universe. Many just assume our universe operates on its own. But, I believe given the apparent contingency of physical laws and our universe, that it is fair to ask similar questions.

Like, who created the universe? What is the universe running on? Who created the laws that our universe works by? What allows everything in the universe to remain in existence and behave as it does? In each case, I believe God is an obvious answer. Notwithstanding I'm influenced by my existing Theistic beliefs.

Further, from a Christian perspective consider Scripture:

• Colossians 1:16-17 --
  16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
  
  DA Carson comments, "In him all things hold together. The whole of creation is established permanently in him alone. He is the sustainer of the universe and the unifying principle of its life. Apart from his continuous sustaining activity (indicated by the tense of the Greek verb) all would fall apart (cf. Heb. 1:2–3)."
  
  Hebrews 1:2-3 --
  2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
  
  Revelation 4:11 --
  “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
  to receive glory and honor and power,
  for you created all things,
  and by your will they were created
  and have their being.”

Like the computer/human duo with software, I consider God to be both the computing power and intelligence that created and sustains everything in existence, runs and keeps all the physical laws in order, allows us to think and breath. Remove the computer and the software stops running. Remove God, and the universe and all of creation would also stop running and existing.

Jac3510 wrote:God is not located anywhere. He is not a spatially defined, extended being. God is not "here" and also "there." If He were, I would ask which part of Him was is each place. And how could all of an extended being exist in multiple places? By nature, it could not, for that is logically self contradictory. But a non-extended being is not anywhere. It is known or experienced in the physical, extended world through its effects. But the effect is not the thing itself. So we say God is omnipresent to mean there is nowhere in which He is not effectual. He is fully present so to speak at each place and each point in time insofar as He Himself and not some part of Him is the cause of that thing's existence. So God's omnipresence is understood in light of His being the First Cause of absolutely everything, not in a temporal sense only but in a moment by moment sense of sustaining and bringing about each thing as it happens as well.

What do you mean by "an extended being"?

To re-word some things to what I'd feel more comfortable with...

God is not located anywhere, but God is located everywhere.

God is not spatially defined, God defines space.

God is not "here" and also "there", "here" and "there" are held together in God.

By your "omnipresence" meaning "there is nowhere in which God is not effectual", do you mean there is nowhere that God cannot effectively reach? If so, I think this downplays what "presence" in "omnipresence" truly means. For example, I'm present in my house right now while my kids are asleep. I can see the hallway and easily reach them in their rooms, such that noone could really access them with my knowing. My presence could be said to be effectual, but I'm not actually present with them at the moment.

I largely agree with you that: "He is fully present so to speak at each place and each point in time insofar as He Himself and not some part of Him is the cause of that thing's existence." (I only strike out "so to speak" as I believe God is fully present in virtue of His omnipresence, not just "so to speak" as in some pseudo-omnipresence).